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allnameswereout is offline allnameswereout
2008-12-15 , 12:44
Posts: 3,397 | Thanked: 1,212 times | Joined on Jul 2008 @ Netherlands
#351
Why does the automobile sector get huge financial injections while in the same time other businesses in all kind of fields go bust?
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sungrove is offline sungrove
2008-12-17 , 00:58
Posts: 322 | Thanked: 28 times | Joined on Feb 2007
#352
Originally Posted by fatalsaint View Post
Hell, for all we know Bush went to settle the score Daddy left hanging. :shrug:
I think this explanation is as likely as any frankly. It was just the shifting sands (the reasons changing over time) reasoning that I got tired of.


My arguments more lean to being pissed off at the arse holes that were standing in front of the military base in which I lived.. holding signs and screaming at us.. and throwing **** at our cars as we left the base every day. It got the point we just stayed home until they left.
I think the saying goes something like this: 'I will fight to the death for your right to freedom of speech , but I will fight you for my right to say and think what I want to.' Supposedly one of the freedoms you are fighting for in Iraq is ultimately our freedom of speech right? Much as it was annoying to you, and I can understand your emotions, you would fight for those protesters' right of free speech, correct?

And to those that want to just up and bail right now with no thought to the fact that we created a power vacuum in that country that needs to be filled first because it's "not out problem". Bull sh**. They damn well are our responsibility now.. whether it should have happened or not. Whether it was American soldiers that should have been tasked or not.. we were. And I wouldn't trade any of my memories there for anything.
This is actually just fine with me. And I think that is what Obama will end up doing. I think at this point everyone understands we can't just leave Iraq like we did from Vietnam.

And, IMHO (this is just my opinion), I believe a homeless person on the streets of America has a lot more opportunities, assistance, help, and anything else he or she needs, than your average person in Iraq had before we got there... and even now it's not significantly better.. but it's at least a little.
When I started down the path of living in my van I thought the same thing. Once you are there it looks a lot different. It's just one of those things you have to experience to understand. Much like I won't totally understand your Iraq experience since I wasn't there.

welfare is not the answer IMHO.. much like a lot of you are saying you don't want to ban all guns - but you want tighter controls?? Well.. I don't necessarily want to completely demolish ALL forms of welfare.. but I do want it regulated and controlled.
OK, a chance for political compromise. More gun control of illegal guns in exchange for tighter controls on welfare. I'll do that.


Mandatory community service for those on it.. things like that.
This would be fine with me too. Someone who is truly in need is not going to have any problem with this and is going to welcome the chance to give back. Lets just apply this to CEOs also. He chuckles...

Neil
Last edited by sungrove; 2008-12-17 at 01:29.
 
Texrat's Avatar
Texrat is offline Texrat
2008-12-17 , 04:11
Posts: 11,700 | Thanked: 10,045 times | Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA
#353
Originally Posted by sungrove View Post
I think this explanation is as likely as any frankly. It was just the shifting sands (the reasons changing over time) reasoning that I got tired of.
Bush is actually quoted as saying that one-upping his old man vis-a-vis Iraq was highly important to him. Friends and family say the father-son rivalry drives quite a bit of the craziness Bush engages in, including flip-flopping on the subject of nation-building...
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fatalsaint is offline fatalsaint
2008-12-17 , 15:34
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#354
OK, a chance for political compromise. More gun control of illegal guns in exchange for tighter controls on welfare. I'll do that.
I knew this was coming and was prepared . The problem with this is: I'm not asking for you to buy my guns...

The issues are completely un-related at a basic level.. if I was petitioning to have the city purchase my rifle that's one thing... I'm not. I merely want the ability to buy one myself. Welfare on the other hand.. is asking the entire community to chip in to feed another.

So while I believe your guys' arguments work for Welfare... they have no relation to gun control.. since guns and their ownership are (or should be) a personal choice - not a collective one. One of the reasons it was written into the Bill of Rights - which is largely regarded as a list individual rights.. not collective (or group) ones.

Don't get me wrong.. I believe a compromise is needed somewhere... just - a compromise regarding at least two fundamentally related aspects would make more sense than applying the same logic to completely different foundations.
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geneven is offline geneven
2008-12-17 , 16:37
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#355
(a) Texrat, I agree that my last post was wrong.

And (b) "And, IMHO (this is just my opinion), I believe a homeless person on the streets of America has a lot more opportunities, assistance, help, and anything else he or she needs, than your average person in Iraq had before we got there... and even now it's not significantly better.. but it's at least a little."

But the fair comparison would be between how things would be if Saddam had been ousted peacefully, which could definitely have been done by natural aging, eventually. We don't really know the answer to that; we can't exactly run a comparison test. As I said in a post far back in the thread, we allowed the Hitler ally Franco to reign in Spain, and not only on the plain, for 50 years. Spain has turned out well, it seems to me.

I am dramatically decreasing my participation here, which my un-fans can rejoice in.

I predict that with the new atmosphere, you will get fewer disruptive forces like me and fewer newbies. The people who are left will agree more and more.
 
fatalsaint is offline fatalsaint
2008-12-17 , 16:44
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#356
Geneven... I like your direction there... the problem I see with that, however, is that typically in history - when you let dictators and rulers rule.. when they die out - they tend to place people with their same idealogical views into the throne as their successors. Typically their children.

in most cases (that I know)... evil dictators and tyrants line of villainy was usually stopped by violence.. either a revolution of the countries own people - or outside forces breaking them down.. With one obvious objection being the Roman Empire.. which collapsed on itself due to the inability to maintain stability throughout the massive empire it built.
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2008-12-17 , 18:46
Posts: 11,700 | Thanked: 10,045 times | Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA
#357
The problem, fatasaint, is that our leadership is inconsistent on a grand and undeniable scale.

We dislodge this dicator, ignore that dictator, and support yet another. Yes yes, there are allll sorts of rationales and reasons... but IMO they don't wash. The enemy of my enemy is not my friend-- he's a potential future enemy. Understanding that is not rocket science-- but it seems to be beyond the grasp of the neocons.
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fatalsaint is offline fatalsaint
2008-12-17 , 18:56
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#358
Definitely in agreement there. We either need to be the world police.. or butt out. Half-asked gets us no where .. and causes unnecessary strain and stress on everyone involved.

I don't really think it's our job to protect the entire planet... but then - there is the whole "Responsibility" with "power" saying...

ETA: However.. the enemy of my enemy can be a useful "asset" now.
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2008-12-18 , 03:02
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#359
Originally Posted by fatalsaint View Post
ETA: However.. the enemy of my enemy can be a useful "asset" now.
That way be more Saddams.
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fatalsaint is offline fatalsaint
2008-12-18 , 14:57
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#360
Nobody can fight everybody at once . The only way to win global domination is to get the enemies of your enemies to help you destroy your enemy.. and then the enemies of your new "friends" to help destroy them.. and so on . Till you widdle the world down to a manageable size and THEN kill everyone left.

Not that.. I've planned this.. or anything...
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