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Is there a section to talk about Java ME? Apps, etc. (7)
to General by teroyk - 15 hrs, 22 mins ago - more...
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2009-11-30
, 05:33
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Joined on Jul 2007
@ Mountain View (CA, USA)
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#42
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Originally Posted by qole
Exactly, and this is why Red Pill mode will be removed from the Application Manager UI. There is xterm, there is a possibility to gain root and then you have all the Debian packaging tools to play with.
If you are enough of a power-user to know how to use "red pill" then you are enough of a power user to know how to use things like "apt-get install" and "apt-cache search" from the command line. So you never have to use red pill. If you don't know how to use those commands, then you're not enough of a power user to be messing with red pill.
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2009-11-30
, 05:35
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Joined on Dec 2007
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#43
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Originally Posted by qole
Not to mention if we know Nokia is going to dump the old repos you can always setup a mirror.
Third-party repositories might disappear, but Nokia has kept the official maemo.org repos for all of the old devices. So don't worry about that.
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Originally Posted by ysss
They're maemo and MeeGo...
"Meamo!" sounds like what Zorro would say to catherine zeta jones... after she slaps him for looking at her dirtily...
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2009-11-30
, 18:12
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Joined on Jan 2009
@ Toronto
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#44
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Originally Posted by qole
Official status is not always helpful. I was lucky enough to install qwerty12's wmlbrowser before it became official (and very grateful to qwerty for packaging it). I am lucky that the plugin restores directly from backup, so there is no need to install the .deb again. Why so lucky? Because qwerty originally packaged it for Chinook, and it works in OS2008HE. The official package is for Diablo and will not install on the 770. I did not save the .deb. I am just lucky.
Third-party repositories might disappear, but Nokia has kept the official maemo.org repos for all of the old devices. So don't worry about that.
I don't know whether tar_1.14-2.1osso_armel.deb is official. Last time I looked for it with apt-get, some bits were missing. For days on end, they were missing. I tried apt-get update, installed the dubious results, and triggered a reboot loop. Finally, I got a clean download. That was lucky. I saved the .deb. I have four copies of it. I know where they are. I don't need to be lucky any more.
Similar story for e2fsprogs. That is supposed to be official, but it doesn't mean you can get it when you need it. It's a pretty basic tool for a Linux computer, like the Nokia 770, 800 or 810. Better bite my lips now. Anyway, I have copies of all six .debs, total size 0.7MB. Maybe I should be more careful: I mustn't overfill my 832MB FAT partition.
Laughing Man, if users have the sense to save a few MBs of .debs and tarballs, they won't need a mirror. Official opposition to the practice is baffling. CrashandDie has a point about filling up the rootfs, although as a non-gamer I find that condition hard to imagine. In any case, that's an argument against saving to the rootfs with apt-get or with the red pill; it's not an argument against saving .debs in general. "Save to MMC" should be a standard (and advised) option in App Manager. Lacking that, users need to do it without App Manager (and especially without the red pill).
Maybe my post was too long, and nobody got past the first paragraph. I see no rebuttal of the point about restoring a backup where downloading is going to cost real money. Maybe nobody can imagine travelling to such a place. Or maybe there's no rebuttal.
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2009-11-30
, 18:24
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Joined on Oct 2009
@ Oxford
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#45
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Originally Posted by scaler
That's certainly what was worrying me, but having had a re-read of the apt-get manual page it looks like I might have been worrying unnecessarily - it appears that 'apt-get clean' only removes the .debs, not the metadata.
I believe the warnings about the red pill and have never used it, but CrashandDie's post is not the way to persuade ewan, who obviously knows what he is writing about. The standard installation procedure is monstrously wasteful of bandwidth. Your package might be single-digit kB, but you first have to download the whole Application List, which for some repositories extends into MB.
There seems to be some confusion here. Downloading a .deb to MMC and installing from there doesn't mean you will install it to MMC. Especially, it does not mean that you will subsequently be running the app from MMC. (To anticipate quibbles, we are not talking here about running the rootfs from a media card partition. I gather that that will be unusual, and perhaps impossible, on the N900.) Unless Application Manager has become much less smart for Fremantle, it will install a .deb from MMC to exactly the same place on the rootfs as if the .deb had come directly from the repository.
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2009-11-30
, 19:51
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Joined on Jan 2009
@ Toronto
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#46
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Originally Posted by ewan
Sorry, I expressed myself badly when I said that App Manager installs the .deb from MMC to the rootfs. I should have said it uses the .deb on MMC to install your application to the rootfs. The .deb doesn't end up occupying space in your rootfs - it's still on the MMC, unless you have done something daft with a red pill to keep it in /var/ .
On that one however, I still think the optional 'Red Pill' only behaviour would be correct - given that the .deb is only temporarily required, and given that root filesystem space on the N900 is particularly cramped, I'd have thought it would make sense to keep the debs on another filesystem, even while installing them to the usual locations.
It sounds as though you want to bring the app into the rootfs only for the time you will be running it. That could be done, but it would be a major pain. You would have to uninstall the app after use, and then reinstall it from your .deb on MMC the next time you want to run it. This might make sense for an app that you rarely use, but most people like to have their apps handy to use immediately.
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2009-11-30
, 20:38
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Posts: 445 |
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Joined on Oct 2009
@ Oxford
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#47
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I think we're all confusing each other now 
As I understand it, apt-get (and therefore the Application Manager) will download .debs to /var/cache/apt/archives/, then install them using dpkg, which puts the expanded contents into the proper filesystem tree, whether that's actually on the root filesystem, using other space mounted on /opt, or whatever.
It would seem reasonable to me that /var/cache/apt/archives/ should be on storage other than the tiny actual root filesystem, so as not to waste scarce space with the actual .deb package files that are only needed for the duration of the installer actually running.
It sounds from the description as though red pill mode allows that and blue pill doesn't, but I haven't got the device yet so I don't know for sure.
As I understand it, apt-get (and therefore the Application Manager) will download .debs to /var/cache/apt/archives/, then install them using dpkg, which puts the expanded contents into the proper filesystem tree, whether that's actually on the root filesystem, using other space mounted on /opt, or whatever.
It would seem reasonable to me that /var/cache/apt/archives/ should be on storage other than the tiny actual root filesystem, so as not to waste scarce space with the actual .deb package files that are only needed for the duration of the installer actually running.
It sounds from the description as though red pill mode allows that and blue pill doesn't, but I haven't got the device yet so I don't know for sure.
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2009-11-30
, 20:43
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Joined on Oct 2007
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#48
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Originally Posted by ewan
Application manager isn't apt-get. It doesn't use /var/cache/apt/archives for cache but the internal mmc
I think we're all confusing each other now
As I understand it, apt-get (and therefore the Application Manager) will download .debs to /var/cache/apt/archives/, then install them using dpkg, which puts the expanded contents into the proper filesystem tree, whether that's actually on the root filesystem, using other space mounted on /opt, or whatever.
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2009-11-30
, 20:43
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Posts: 5,478 |
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Joined on Jan 2006
@ St. Petersburg, FL
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#49
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Originally Posted by ewan
As said way back in the beginning of this thread, the Application Manager automatically does the right thing and caches .debs to the internal memory card. Apt does not, unfortunately, though.
It sounds from the description as though red pill mode allows that and blue pill doesn't, but I haven't got the device yet so I don't know for sure.
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Ryan Abel
Ryan Abel
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2009-11-30
, 20:48
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Posts: 445 |
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Joined on Oct 2009
@ Oxford
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#50
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Right; got it. I think. However this part of the wiki entry on red pill mode:
rather implies that the default behaviour is not to do that, and that using the MMC is a red pill mode behaviour.
Using this option is useful to install/upgrade packages when there's enough free space at the root filesystem to install, but not to download plus install/upgrade, so you can use an alternative storage just to download such those packages.
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