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Is there a section to talk about Java ME? Apps, etc. (3)
to General by Kalatti - 1 day, 14 hrs ago - more...
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2010-03-01
, 22:10
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@ Mountain View (CA, USA)
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#82
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Originally Posted by Hrw
Intel and Nokia are still discussing the last details about the MeeGo architecture. In technical terms this means that still today nobody knows what exactly the MeeGo OS will consist of. Imagine a month ago, two months ago, three...
I think that we need to wait first for MeeGo project to release at least code and first testing root filesystems for any ARM device so we will be able to check how it works (never mind will it be pure console or X11 with just xterm).
There are comments saying that users of [competitor] take for granted that their device will get further updates. But that situation doesn't really compare to the jump from Maemo 5 to Harmattan/MeeGo, which represents a deep change in the OS plus a total rewrite of the applications.
Would users of [competitor] expect to get a totally renewed UX to their current devices, including all new pre-installed apps and a revamped OS?
Still, the chance is there. The sooner you demand an answer the easiest is to get a conservative silence. The closer we get to Harmattan / MeeGo stable releases the easiest is to give accurate technical and business answers.
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2010-03-01
, 22:11
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@ ˙ǝɹǝɥʍou
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#83
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I'd like to also point out that the MeeGo Milestone was a special occurrence that had happened after all the (high level) roadmap was laid down and shared with the community. This milestone has introduced quite a number of new and unexpected variables into our existing equation.
I think an audible show of concern by the community is understandable or even expected.
Nokia should take the time and effort to address the community again about where we're charting the course; even if it's just to say:
Last edited by ysss; 2010-03-01 at 22:26.
I think an audible show of concern by the community is understandable or even expected.
Nokia should take the time and effort to address the community again about where we're charting the course; even if it's just to say:
Please wait... recalculating route.
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Last edited by ysss; 2010-03-01 at 22:26.
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2010-03-01
, 22:11
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@ London, UK
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#84
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Originally Posted by wmarone
Maybe open source development and the desire to engage with the community is a double edged sword. Here we have a new, open, approach to software development meeting old hardware shifting practices. Long term device compatibility has never featured highly on the Maemo list of priorities.
No joke. No one gives Apple or HTC endless streams of what we get here over lack of discussion regarding future software. They are continually dead silent on how older devices are to be treated. I've never seen so many people panic and spread FUD about a product's future like they have here. Granted, some of them are long time users who are extrapolating past behavior by Nokia, so it's not -all- unfounded, just most.
Contrast our community with iPhone owners - they don't need to be concerned about silence from Apple or being left with a device that has limited support as they know that Apple will continue to support their old device with new firmware even when new hardware becomes available - that's a trick Nokia haven't quite mastered yet.
Just imagine the furore that would ensue if Apple released a new "4GS" iPhone with wizzy new v4.00 firmware and fixes for long standing v3 bugs, but gave no hint when asked outright if an update would be made available for older (in fact, even current) devices. Trust me, the brown stuff would hit the fan pretty sharpish.
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2010-03-01
, 22:24
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Joined on Oct 2009
@ Oxford
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#85
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Originally Posted by Texrat
The iPhone is something of a special case though, and everyone else's failure to beat Apple at that game proves it. If Nokia and others are going to compete against Apple in the smartphone/tablet/mobile computer arena they're going to have to do something different.
consumers really don't care in general. iPhone success proves it.
As Rauha points out, Nokia have been pushing the openness of Maemo pretty heavily, and the community has responded by getting a lot of Free/OSS apps into the repositories in a pretty short space of time. Those apps will be a large part of what makes end users buy the devices, and if the attitude to development discourages community engagement and involvement, then it's only going to hurt. In general, the people that are aware of and engaged in these sorts of issues and these sorts of discussions exert a disproportionate effect on the market because they/we do things that influence other people's purchasing decisions, one way or another.
Aside from the hardware sales POV, if the Meego project is ever going to get much effort from people that aren't either Nokia or Intel employees, then people are going to need to feel enthusiastic about helping; if that doesn't happen then Nokia and Intel are going to get saddled carrying the full development costs themselves, and at that point they get the worst of all possible worlds - all of the development costs of doing it in-house, but still the licensing lets anyone else use the end result for nothing. That can't be good.
Again though, the bottom line is that, like it or not, the community response is what it is. If Nokia feels that's a problem for them, then they can fix it; if they're OK with it, then they can ignore it. I don't think that there's a middle way where the noise and complaints and 'FUD' goes away without the substance of the situation actually changing.
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2010-03-01
, 22:25
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@ London, UK
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#86
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Originally Posted by qgil
But whose "fault" is that? This is now the third or fourth major OS change, and each time the previous owners are dumped. I know plans change, but when the hardware remains the same it's hard to convince previous owners that it's impossible to get the new OS running on the "old" hardware.
There are comments saying that users of [competitor] take for granted that their device will get further updates. But that situation doesn't really compare to the jump from Maemo 5 to Harmattan/MeeGo, which represents a deep change in the OS plus a total rewrite of the applications.
Originally Posted by qgil
When the hardware is largely the same, yes, why not?
Would users of [competitor] expect to get a totally renewed UX to their current devices, including all new pre-installed apps and a revamped OS?
Unless, and here's just a couple of examples, the new OS requires double the RAM to run (in which case, seriously questionable design!
) or the new OS is designed for use with specific hard buttons that the old device won't have (although to be fair this could be worked around if the will was there).I've already said I believe this to be a "reasonable expectation" so unless the hardware is radically different my opinion isn't likely to change.
Originally Posted by qgil
The trouble is we kept silent on 770 and missed out on OS2007.
Still, the chance is there. The sooner you demand an answer the easiest is to get a conservative silence. The closer we get to Harmattan / MeeGo stable releases the easiest is to give accurate technical and business answers.
We were subsequently told - once it became apparent that OS2007 wouldn't be made available for the 770 - "Sorry, it's now too late to add support the 770, maybe if we had included support earlier in the design phase".
On that basis, when is it polite to ask about Harmattan on N900?
Last edited by Milhouse; 2010-03-01 at 22:29.
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2010-03-01
, 22:27
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#87
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Originally Posted by qgil
The problem here is that the situation of "revamped-OS-must-have-new-hardware" was lived here already in the transition from Diablo to Fremantle, and although it was reasonable, it was still a hard pill to swallow for many.
There are comments saying that users of [competitor] take for granted that their device will get further updates. But that situation doesn't really compare to the jump from Maemo 5 to Harmattan/MeeGo, which represents a deep change in the OS plus a total rewrite of the applications.
Asking customers (specially new ones) to pass through the same situation, in a short time span, it is a harder pill to swallow, even more when there is a sensible feeling about Maemo 5 being incomplete.
Would users of [competitor] expect to get a totally renewed UX to their current devices, including all new pre-installed apps and a revamped OS?
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Hola! Soy un Guía de Maemo!.
Vínculos interesantes si nos visitas por primera vez (en inglés): New members say hello , New users start here, Community subforum, Beginners' wiki page, Maemo5 101, Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Si te puedo ayudar con cualquier otra cosa, sólo dilo!
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2010-03-01
, 22:28
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@ Mountain View (CA, USA)
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#88
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Originally Posted by Texrat
I haven't said that the decision is made, high enough or not.
Quim's point as I understand it is that the decision is made high enough up that it's out of his hands, and ranting about it here is pointless at this time.
It is not about height but about scope, and I have insisted on this since I joined this forum. I discuss about open source software and developer offering. I might discuss about Nokia proprietary software if that is useful. I avoid as much as possible discussions about Nokia hardware and 3rd party commercial software, just because this is totally out of my scope. Harmattan/MeeGo officially supported in the N900, Ovi Maps with free navigation, etc are business topics to be discussed with business owners. People like Peter, Janne, Ari...
From this perspective I'm not saying that ranting is pointless. Unhappy customers are unhappy customers and must be heard. But then how efficient is to repeat now and again the rants in yet another Talk thread? If you want to be heard as customers then exercise your rights as customers through the Nokia customer channels and wherever else you think you will be heard as customers.
I'm here as a contributor and all you are here as contributors. Turning maemo.org into a frustrated customer channel doesn't help anybody.
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2010-03-01
, 22:35
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Posts: 3,105 |
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@ Mountain View (CA, USA)
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#89
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Originally Posted by ewan
Containing all fears in one place would already help the uncertainty and doubt.
To be completely clear; are you suggesting a page in which Nokia communicates with us what we can realistically expect, or a page in which we make wild uninformed speculations about it? In other words are you trying to remove people's fears, uncertainties and doubts, or simply contain them in one place?
From that point we all can do better.
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2010-03-01
, 22:41
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Joined on Oct 2009
@ Oxford
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#90
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Originally Posted by qgil
Well, since you ask, how about just one, Apple's announcement of the iPhone OS 3.0 update:
URLs are welcome, specially from commercial competitors.
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2009/03/17iphone.html
A few select quotes:
availability of a beta software release to registered developers
The new iPhone OS 3.0 software will be available to iPhone and iPod touch users this summer
new features including cut, copy and paste
Phone customers will be able to download the new iPhone OS 3.0 software for free this summer
Is that OK for a view of how a major competitor handles this sort of thing?
Seriously, though, I am refactoring that presentation into a post mortem / lessons learned sort of thing. Hopefully Nokia (and Intel) will find it useful).
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