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Is there a section to talk about Java ME? Apps, etc. (3)
to General by Kalatti - 12 hrs, 48 mins ago - more...
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2011-02-15
, 15:15
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#232
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>> How come something is created with the user in mind, yet it tries to lock in the user and milk cash from him/her whenever it can?
err... wtf... you recently come from north Korea or something ?
The point of a business is to make money, that is their bottom line - in practice they have no other aim (do no evil my ***).
And controlling the customers device allows the company to make more money. Given this, what - you expect the business to take the less profitable but more "ethical" approach and over time get beaten by businesses that are more profitable ?
Welcome to the real world and how business works - if anything blame the general consumer for behaving in such a manner which means that for a business to make the most money, they must exercise such control.
dont hate the player, hate the game haha
err... wtf... you recently come from north Korea or something ?
The point of a business is to make money, that is their bottom line - in practice they have no other aim (do no evil my ***).
And controlling the customers device allows the company to make more money. Given this, what - you expect the business to take the less profitable but more "ethical" approach and over time get beaten by businesses that are more profitable ?
Welcome to the real world and how business works - if anything blame the general consumer for behaving in such a manner which means that for a business to make the most money, they must exercise such control.
dont hate the player, hate the game haha
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2011-02-15
, 15:17
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@ ˙ǝɹǝɥʍou
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#233
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The lack of understanding (of what a customer needs) in this forum is too disturbing at times...
Each time reducing my faith of FOSS solution to 'take over' the world.
Each time reducing my faith of FOSS solution to 'take over' the world.
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Class .. : Power User
Humor .. : [#####-----] | Alignment: Pragmatist
Patience : [###-------] | Weapon(s): Galaxy Note + BB Bold Touch 9900
Agro ... : [###-------] | Relic(s) : iPhone 4S, Atrix, Milestone, N900, N800, N95, HTC G1, Treos, Zauri, BB 9000, BB 9700, etc
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2011-02-15
, 15:30
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#234
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Originally Posted by zwer
Ok... let me ask you this. Why does it have to be one or the other? Good for developers shouldn't mean that users lose out with a weaker UI/UX and a strong (or simple) UI/UX shouldn't mean that the developers take a loss or are boxed in. Too much of that mentality is prevalent now and thus if it becomes a quickly stated stance of "Too shiny, it's for the sheep" or "Too difficult, it's gotta be for developers" when neither should be true.
Make up your mind, is it good for a dev eloper, or good for the end user? It can't be both on the same level. Knowing various .NET/CLI caveats, I'll take a guess - WP7 is better for the user, and you are saying that it's made with the user in mind, and here is what I have a problem with...
How come something is created with the user in mind, yet it tries to lock in the user and milk cash from him/her whenever it can? Doesn't that seem rather contradictory?
Let me put my user hat for a moment, and lets say I purchase a WP7 device - how am I to transfer my music library from my Linux laptop to it?
And even VBox is not a solution, already tried it and it didn't work, but even if it would - why would I buy a desktop OS to run it in a virtual machine just so I could transfer my files to my mobile device? How is that 'with user in mind'?
Lately, I've been all about running my own webDAV on the device - iPhone, iPad and now Android (via an app called WebSharing) and that gives me the freedom to share, collect files as long as I'm around wifi and another computer and/or smartphone - I hate wires.
How is it bad for the user to be able to access the device via a standard USB connection, or to transfer his/her files from network storage, or...? Name me one good reason to only be able to access your device through a proprietary app and how can that be good for the user?
But... desktop apps give people that don't know ctrl+c, ctrl+v or standard folder structures a chance to use higher functions such as... moving movies and/or music over to a device too.
Having it both ways is ideal, imho. Desktop app and mount as a device.
I personaly have no problems with closed-source apps/OSes/whatever, I have a problem with locked in systems directed and censored by some outside entity - in such system you end up leasing your device instead of owning it, where the manufacturer can change the terms of use retroactively, after you've purchased the given device - and I just cannot accept that. True, given a choice I prefer OSS, but closed source is just fine as long as it uses widely accepted standards and does not lock you in.
Still waiting... a week later of playing with it, WP7 doesn't give me that.
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2011-02-15
, 16:09
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#235
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I am a mere user of a N900 and thus Maemo. I like to play around and value that freedom higher than perfection. in many respects IOs is more finished, polished etc. but also rather limited (my favorite on the N900 is Easy Debian and therefore I love the resistive touch screen and the stylus because a system following the desktop paradigm otherwise would be unusable). From such a point of view, it is not necessarily a question of either/or (unless you are single-track minded) but there could be a parallel approach.
However, I easily can see that Meamo - and apparently Meego in its present state - might suite me but is not form my brother (literally. For good reason he likes his IPhone).
That is why I make this statement: there might be the simple recognition, that Meego (unless it is really polished) would be for a different clientele than WP7 (or IOs or Android) is aiming for.
I am one of those who are a bit frustrated because my favorite path is somehow deemed to be less supported now. However, little hope remains that is not fully abandoned yet. Should it once turn out that a third system for the bigger market will not catch on, a return to the alternative path (Plan B) appears to be still possible although I see the risk that this path is diminishing due to lack of care. We will see.
However, I easily can see that Meamo - and apparently Meego in its present state - might suite me but is not form my brother (literally. For good reason he likes his IPhone).
That is why I make this statement: there might be the simple recognition, that Meego (unless it is really polished) would be for a different clientele than WP7 (or IOs or Android) is aiming for.
I am one of those who are a bit frustrated because my favorite path is somehow deemed to be less supported now. However, little hope remains that is not fully abandoned yet. Should it once turn out that a third system for the bigger market will not catch on, a return to the alternative path (Plan B) appears to be still possible although I see the risk that this path is diminishing due to lack of care. We will see.
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2011-02-15
, 16:18
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@ Netherlands
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#236
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Originally Posted by gerbick
Of course it doesn't, but one must prevail. The thing is, for the end user it's better if all of the UI/UX is consistant throughout the whole system, including 3rd party apps. And in most cases, it also helps the developer - but then again it stifles creativity because you, as a developer, are forced to obey some system manufacturer's guidelines, which can range from severely limited to downright frustrating.
Ok... let me ask you this. Why does it have to be one or the other? Good for developers shouldn't mean that users lose out with a weaker UI/UX and a strong (or simple) UI/UX shouldn't mean that the developers take a loss or are boxed in. Too much of that mentality is prevalent now and thus if it becomes a quickly stated stance of "Too shiny, it's for the sheep" or "Too difficult, it's gotta be for developers" when neither should be true.
In an ideal system, the user would be informed when installing an app that it may affect the system performance, look and feel, and let the user decide if the app is worth granting such access.
Originally Posted by gerbick
Changing the SD card resets the system for some reason, so we were reluctant to try it. And, as I understood, even then you wouldn't be able to add music to the media player that way - it's either Zune way or the highway.
As it stands though, many reports are sorta negative around the SD card usage for WP7.
Originally Posted by gerbick
Ditto, and that's one, amongst other things, that Nokia loses going the WP7 way. Granted, both PC Suite and the later Ovi Suite never got to the ease of use of competing suites, but they were still enough for a laymen - us, techies, are using rsync for years now. It even works on newer s40 devices. I can't see how that is bad for the user, and how a platform that doesn't provide you with such basic functionality is 'created with user in mind'
Having it both ways is ideal, imho. Desktop app and mount as a device...
...
Still waiting... a week later of playing with it, WP7 doesn't give me that.
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Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
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2011-02-15
, 21:39
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Joined on Dec 2009
@ New Jersey, USA
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#237
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Originally Posted by kureyon
I'm done. I love surreal comedy but this is getting too surreal even for me. When the conspiracy folks at abovetopsecret.com are putting forth sounder logic (top member thread pick today involves how the Israel UFO video is probably a hoax) than here... there's no way to discuss the issue. When an empty assertion is considered an argument.. how do you respond? When people are not only entitled to their own opinion but their own set of facts (by simply making them up as they go along)... how can there be rational discussion? When the Scobelizer blog leads off its article on Nokia fans with a picture of a basket of walnuts, maybe that ought to be a hint the more extreme elements should be reined in to avoid making everyone look foolish, as all of the mocking plan(whatever) websites are already doing.
Absolutely. To the limited extent that MS allows them of course.
Money does wonderfully corrupt things.
- The board probably has been bought off, promised cushy non-executive positions on MS's board when they takeover the soon to be dead Nokia.
- With enough money you can buy off the DoJ to call off their United State vs Microsoft case.
- With enough money you can stuff enough stooges into the ISO standards approval process to get a non-implementable standard get voted in as a standard.
Gerbick, I'm not going to become part of the MeeBorg collective, I'm getting into an escape pod and abandoning ship. I'll watch from a distance as WP7 becomes the #2 smart phone OS thanks to Nokia and Nokia means something again in America besides ultra-cheap phones (like the Nokia 2720 I bought for $40 unlocked). I expect to see desktop OSes on handhelds before my new nephew enters kindergarten, something which is somewhat possible today with devices like the Viliv N5 and UMID BZ. Canonical will probably deliver the small device open OS consumer-focused software that MeeGo was supposed to be in the interim.
Good luck, folks. My recommendation is that instead of daydreaming "Plan B" scenarios and not looking at what the rest of the world is writing about "Plan A" (interestingly devoid of conspiracy theory) you fork Maemo, code open source versions of the closed source parts using the Qt tools I've been told in another post are the most popular in the entire world, even more so than VS and .NET, and produce your own ARM-based consumer OS. If all it should take is, in the words of Steve Ballmer, "developers, developers, developers" then this should be accomplished even quicker than those here claimed MeeGo could have been whipped into shape by Nokia if they hadn't all been bribed by Microsoft. If things like "copy and paste" are both simple and essential, your fork should be state-of-the-art and completely polished out of the box, else it shall be failure. If the market doesn't want to pinch widgets and buy apps then it should also be adopted by commercial companies and you'll be vindicated. But, if that doesn't happen, at least you'll have done something more productive towards getting yourselves a desktop/phone OS than plotting to storm stockholder meetings. I sincerely wish you good luck turning whatever code you have available into the OS you've been dreaming of, but I expect you'll find it's not as simple as you think nor will the results be as market-grabbing. Me, I think I'd rather slap openSUSE 11.3 on a Viliv N5 and carry it around with my new $40 Nokia phone and call it a day.
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2011-02-16
, 01:54
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Posts: 3,397 |
Thanked: 1,212 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
@ Netherlands
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#238
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Originally Posted by alcalde
Your argument is valid in the sense that Microsoft gotten their profits from a dominant market position (the Windows desktop, and Office) where they've used business tactics for which they've been convicted, and have entered various other markets using the profits from said position which are not, or are hardly, profitable. Examples include Zune, WM, Xbox.
Ok, Nokia partners with an industry giant who needs someone to put their product into smart phones and which a lot of people have an impression of as being inferior to the existing product (in this case, ARM). This industry giant promises OS help in exchange. This industry giant has been cited numerous times for monopolistic, anti-competitive and blatantly illegal tactics to maintain its position but is facing heat from an emerging mobile market for which it does not seem to have an adequate response.
Now, my simple, humble question is....
HOW COME NO ONE HAD A PROBLEM WITH THIS THEN BUT THEY DO NOW?!?[/SIZE]
For Intel similar. Convicted monopolist who is putting R&D in different projects, and selling different hardware than x86-32 chips. Itanium, x86-64, Atom, WiFi, and so on, and so on. However it is inherent to tech industry because the market changes so fast. It also questionable which corporation is 'more evil' which values influence each of our views, knowingly or not. And this is where the equation doesn't hold much water anymore...
1) Because in a Capitalist system we welcome competition on hardware platforms; e.g. ARM in desktop/workstations/servers/netbooks/smartphones and so on and Intel on smartphones/GPUs/tablets/GPS and so on.
2) Because a lot of MeeGo code is platform agnostic. Since it is written in languages such as C and C++ it is portable to other platforms than x86-32. Debian, for example, also uses code by Intel in say Linux kernel or MeeGo packages even though Intel is a convicted monopolist. They also have various ports of Debian; even non-x86-32 ones, and even non-Linux ones.
3) Intel is different. Intel is primarily a hardware company, and if you look at the past, that type of company is often open source friendly while corporations which are (proprietary) software companies are not. Intel play by the rules of open source in this market, and they never played dirty in this sector (unlike Microsoft). They've build up credit with their Linux kernel development. Microsoft has not build up credibility with open source development. On the contrary; the Halloween documents have received additional addendum due to the SCO debacle. Microsoft had several chances for building up credibility e.g. with Mono, and screwed it with exclusive deals (where Novell received a lot of money from Microsoft... sounds familiar?) but they refrain from official statements which can be used legally so they can use their patent arsenal once more, when time is right. Qt and MySQL have safety mechanisms build in; Nokia and Sun still bought them. The Office debacle also shows what kind of control freaks they still are. Which shouldn't surprise anyone when the CEO is not a techie (marketing or sth) and someone who was with Microsoft from the first hour. In short, Microsoft's core business competes with a lot of corporations including some assets from Nokia which are technical advanced such as Qt, and Symbian. Intel? They primarily compete with AMD, IBM, ARM. Intel is also not a competitor of Nokia. Microsoft, Apple, Google, et al. are. So what you asserted about Intel is drawing attention away from Microsoft. What you say has nothing to do with the threat from Microsoft and their shady business tactics (brief analysis here) which should not be forgotten. People recognize factors from previous cases, and share their observations. You can see some previous deals Microsoft had with 'strategic' mobile partners and that is actually this very market segment only.
Originally Posted by alcalde
Hardcore Nokia fans like anything Nokia does. This is inherent to being a fan. Take for example an Apple fan. If he would question or criticize an aspect of Apple, he'd not be seen as a fan anymore. Instead, I see rather many sceptics and critics here, as well as open source purists. Which can actually be a huge pain in the arse for a corporation.
Wouldn't work. Hardcore Nokia fans would insist that if Nokia wasn't [...]
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2011-02-16
, 02:27
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#239
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Very interesting points made there "allnameswereout" and just goes to show the importance of a company and their products because it is obvious now that Nokia are just not the kind of company that should be involved with an OS in any way or form, they lack the expertise and the knowledge to carry through any OS.
I very agree with you on Intel as they are for sure more open, so if they do take on Meego then i am sure we will all benefit all round.
Nokia keep out of software development please !!!!.
I very agree with you on Intel as they are for sure more open, so if they do take on Meego then i am sure we will all benefit all round.
Nokia keep out of software development please !!!!.
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2011-02-16
, 02:27
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Posts: 170 |
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#240
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the silver lining to all of this is at least the Meego mascots will get a second chance at life.
How come something is created with the user in mind, yet it tries to lock in the user and milk cash from him/her whenever it can? Doesn't that seem rather contradictory? Let me put my user hat for a moment, and lets say I purchase a WP7 device - how am I to transfer my music library from my Linux laptop to it? And even VBox is not a solution, already tried it and it didn't work, but even if it would - why would I buy a desktop OS to run it in a virtual machine just so I could transfer my files to my mobile device? How is that 'with user in mind'? How is it bad for the user to be able to access the device via a standard USB connection, or to transfer his/her files from network storage, or...? Name me one good reason to only be able to access your device through a proprietary app and how can that be good for the user?
I personaly have no problems with closed-source apps/OSes/whatever, I have a problem with locked in systems directed and censored by some outside entity - in such system you end up leasing your device instead of owning it, where the manufacturer can change the terms of use retroactively, after you've purchased the given device - and I just cannot accept that. True, given a choice I prefer OSS, but closed source is just fine as long as it uses widely accepted standards and does not lock you in.
Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
Last edited by zwer; 2011-02-15 at 14:41.