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	benny1967	2009-05-19 , 12:08
	Posts: 3,790 \| Thanked: 5,718 times \| Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria	#21

Originally Posted by YoDude

The problem that I have with the quote I posted in this thread is Carrier Subsidized...
Many of us in the US and Canada have looked at Nokia as the last great hope to free us from the constraints that this business model has imposed over the years. We have seen how technology has been harbored and innovation has been stifled.

"Carrier subsidized" means different things to different people in different markets... it's not necessarily as bad as it seems to be in North America

For me, a carrier subsidized phone is the same phone I'd get from the manufacturers store, except its a lot cheaper (mostly: free), it doesn't work with another carriers SIM-card and it may have some applications pre-installed (or settings pre-configured).

I still can use it the same way as the original model. I am not forced to keep the applications and settings the carrier put on the phone. And I can even unlock it if I want to change the carrier (although this is usually done in dingy small stores in dark and narrow streets

).

So when I read "carrier subsidized", I just go "Wow, nice! My carrier will offer it for free!". Nothing more.

Last edited by benny1967; 2009-05-19 at 12:13.

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	krisse	2009-05-19 , 12:15
	Posts: 1,540 \| Thanked: 1,045 times \| Joined on Feb 2007	#22

Originally Posted by YoDude

...perhaps your notion that "Carrier Subsidized" is just a weird idea of North American consumers could be argued best in another thread.

There are people in other regions who buy network-locked phones, but America is probably the only western country where people think they MUST buy network-locked phones.

It's not just locking that's dubious, the American market has had all kinds of things like "activation" and charging for received calls which simply wouldn't be acceptable to phone users in other markets.

And like I said in previous threads, only in America was Nokia forced to remove wi-fi from some of its phones at the behest of the network operators.

There is something really rotten about the US phone market, there's no proper competition and anti-competitive measures are just waved through by legislators and consumers alike. There's just total indifference and acceptance by people who really should know better.

Did you see the thread on the iPhone 3G with the title "$199 iPhone"? That shows a total lack of understanding what that price really means, it's actually just an initial payment in a long term agreement. If you buy an iPhone 3G without making an agreement, you're looking at a price closer to $500 - $600.

The one thing that's really hopeful has been Google's insistance that the auction on certain new frequencies should only take place on condition that all devices (even unlocked non-operator ones) should be allowed to use the network.

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	krisse	2009-05-19 , 12:16
	Posts: 1,540 \| Thanked: 1,045 times \| Joined on Feb 2007	#23

Originally Posted by benny1967

"Carrier subsidized" means different things to different people in different markets... it's not necessarily as bad as it seems to be in North America

For me, a carrier subsidized phone is the same phone I'd get from the manufacturers store, except its a lot cheaper (mostly: free),

This is exactly what I'm talking about. It is NOT cheaper to buy from a carrier. You are fooling yourself if you think it is. As long as Americans (Edit: or Austrians!) continue to believe that carrier phones are cheaper or free, they will continue to support the carrier-dominated hardware market. They have to break free from this delusion if they want to stop carriers crippling hardware.

When you buy something on a credit card, do you think it's free?

No, because you have to pay it back in installments.

So why the heck do you think a carrier-subsidised phone is free?

You realise all you're doing is buying it at full price but in installments?

Last edited by krisse; 2009-05-19 at 12:28. Reason: ...or austrians :-)

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	Lord Raiden	2009-05-19 , 12:20
	Posts: 1,562 \| Thanked: 349 times \| Joined on Jun 2008	#24

Forgive me for seeming obvious, but doesn't that look an awful lot like a KDE 4.2 desktop?? Or at the very least the widgets?

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	YoDude	2009-05-19 , 12:33
	Posts: 2,869 \| Thanked: 1,784 times \| Joined on Feb 2007 @ Po' Bo'. PA	#25

Originally Posted by benny1967

...<snip>...
So when I read "carrier subsidized", I just go "Wow, nice! My carrier will offer it for free!". Nothing more.

Provided that you are eligible for an upgrade.
Agree not to be "eligible" for newer upgrades for the next two years, and realize that any deviation from these terms is a violation of your "contract" with your "carrier". Requests to terminate your contract early will be honored provided you pay a $200 early termination fee. Your carrier reserves the right to blah, blah ...first born child... blah, blah...

Again, this is a side argument best served by a new thread.

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RichS	2009-05-19 , 12:35
Posts: 71 \| Thanked: 58 times \| Joined on May 2008	#26

I think the point about carrier subsidised phones (at least in the UK) is that on a 'pay as you go' phone you pay for the phone and then pay for your calls. If you have to buy X amount of credit a month every month for 12 months and buy a phone you end up paying 12X+Y. If however there is a contract that costs X per month, including the phone, it totals 12X per year. It turns out cheaper and 90% of the time you get a better phone than you could afford otherwise.

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	krisse	2009-05-19 , 12:40
	Posts: 1,540 \| Thanked: 1,045 times \| Joined on Feb 2007	#27

Originally Posted by RichS

I think the point about carrier subsidised phones (at least in the UK) is that on a 'pay as you go' phone you pay for the phone and then pay for your calls. If you have to buy X amount of credit a month every month for 12 months and buy a phone you end up paying 12X+Y. If however there is a contract that costs X per month, including the phone, it totals 12X per year. It turns out cheaper and 90% of the time you get a better phone than you could afford otherwise.

Why buy a PAYG phone instead of an unlocked phone though?

PAYG phones usually cost about the same as the same model unlocked, unlocked phones do everything a PAYG phone can do, but unlocked phones can also be used with all other SIM cards from all other networks on all other tariffs.

PAYG handsets are a total con, really. The only reason people buy them is because they think they have to buy them.

It turns out cheaper and 90% of the time you get a better phone than you could afford otherwise.

You're not getting the phone any cheaper on contract, all it's doing is spreading the cost of the phone across a year or two in monthly installments.

You can achieve exactly the same price by buying an unlocked phone on credit or bank loan, but the unlocked phone is a heck of a lot more flexible and easier to sell at the end of it.

Last edited by krisse; 2009-05-19 at 12:43.

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	benny1967	2009-05-19 , 12:45
	Posts: 3,790 \| Thanked: 5,718 times \| Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria	#28

Originally Posted by krisse

So why the heck do you think a carrier-subsidised phone is free?

You realise all you're doing is buying it at full price but in installments?

yes and no. i signed my contract in 1998 or so IIRC. i can choose to buy a new subsidized phone every xx months (depending on how much my monthly bills are). i don't use my mobile very often, so my bills are low and it's every 1,5-2 years or so for me.

yes, of course i pay for it indirectly. on the other hand: my contract doesn't change whether or not i go and get a new phone. it's not that i want a new phone, find it subsidized model somewhere and then sign a contract to get it free. it's the other way round: i pay for it anyway, and i can choose to take one or not. (usually i don't, it's too much of a hassle to switch to a new phone. i only took 2 phones so far.)

you could of course argue that i could instead have a contract with lower rates that does not include this upgrade program. yes i could, but there's other things in my contract i'd lose then, too, and those are more important for me.

OTOH, none of this is relevant when discussing subsidized phones as such in this market. the point i was trying to make was that the subsidized version of the phone here is no different (or even worse) than the non-subsidized original, which, as far as i understand, is different from the situation in north america.

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	YoDude	2009-05-19 , 12:47
	Posts: 2,869 \| Thanked: 1,784 times \| Joined on Feb 2007 @ Po' Bo'. PA	#29

I'm thinkin' this is more on point...

...This build of Maemo is a fairly dramatic shift from past releases, having been largely rebuilt for the jump to phones.

The home screen (”Harmattan Direct UI”) is essentially one big vertically scrolling page on which users can add widgets.

We’ve seen a few widget examples so far, and they all appear to take up the full width of the screen.

These widgets are tightly tied to the rest of the phone.

Imagine, for example, that your home screen is made up of a calendar widget and a map widget, along with a handful of other widgets. If you make an appointment with one of your contacts, the appointment will automatically load into the calendar widget, place an icon in the right location on the map widget, and tie itself into any of the other widgets where appropriate

Home screen ad widgets would be tucked between these other widgets.

Unlike the other widgets, ad widgets would not be user removable or customizable.

The current plan is for Nokia to give control of these ad units to the carriers, presumably taking a cut of the ad revenue.

Nokia’s goal with these ad widgets is to make them incredibly context sensitive based on behavioral data. GPS placing you near a K-Mart? Bam! K-Mart ads. Browsing history showing you’re a peruser of Hello Kitty fansites? Sanrio ads might embarrass the hell out of you grace your homescreen.

Our source indicates that this is all part of Nokia’s larger goal of conquering the cell phone cloud services market.

Maemo Harmattan’s tentative release date is Q4 2010/Q1 2011.

Would carriers play along with this idea? Perhaps. While we were digging for independent confirmation of these details, another source pointed out that Pekka Ala-Pietilä, President of Nokia until 2005, left the company to start Blyk. As it just so happens, Blyk is a mobile operator in the Netherlands and UK which gives customers free texts/minutes each month in exchange for ad views. At the very least, this shows that there are carriers out there willing to experiment with the concept.