Active Topics
-
Is there a section to talk about Java ME? Apps, etc. (5)
to General by teroyk - 4 days, 23 hrs ago -
Extra softwares in Sailfish using CLI, repositories, etc (118)
to SailfishOS by nieldk - 5 days, 5 hrs ago -
Paths (0)
to Maemo 7 / Leste by teroyk - 6 days, 2 hrs ago - more...
|
2015-04-23
, 16:07
|
|
Posts: 329 |
Thanked: 422 times |
Joined on Feb 2011
@ derpton
|
#22
|
One can argue that those terms of the OHA are there to protect Android from fragmentation.
Still HTC could release a Sailfish phone without Alien Dalvik.
Still HTC could release a Sailfish phone without Alien Dalvik.
| The Following User Says Thank You to herpderp For This Useful Post: | ||
|
|
2015-04-23
, 16:14
|
|
Posts: 118 |
Thanked: 229 times |
Joined on Oct 2014
@ UK
|
#23
|
Originally Posted by herpderp
Just as Microsoft valiantly sought to prevent the fragmentation of web standards by bundling Internet Explorer with their incredibly popular OS, and not allowing OEMs to install alternatives?
One can argue that those terms of the OHA are there to protect Android from fragmentation.
Still HTC could release a Sailfish phone without Alien Dalvik.
And they could, but they're not stupid - it'd be DOA. No Dalvik = no official WhatsApp. That means next to no sales in Europe, which is the primary market for any Sailfish device. Google know that they're stopping competition by preventing the release of Android-compatible competitors.
| The Following User Says Thank You to From Vertu with Love For This Useful Post: | ||
 |
|
2015-04-23
, 16:23
|
|
Posts: 6,445 |
Thanked: 20,981 times |
Joined on Sep 2012
@ UK
|
#24
|
Originally Posted by herpderp
FWIW, Jolla has released a Sailfish phone without Alien Dalvik
Still HTC could release a Sailfish phone without Alien Dalvik.
__________________
Русский военный корабль, иди нахуй!
Русский военный корабль, иди нахуй!
|
|
2015-04-23
, 16:39
|
|
Posts: 329 |
Thanked: 422 times |
Joined on Feb 2011
@ derpton
|
#25
|
Originally Posted by From Vertu with Love
That's not the same thing. For one, IE was never open source. Anybody can take Android's source and fork it, they just can't release devices with it and label it as official android (they won't get play services for it, for example).
Just as Microsoft valiantly sought to prevent the fragmentation of web standards by bundling Internet Explorer with their incredibly popular OS, and not allowing OEMs to install alternatives?
Originally Posted by From Vertu with Love
The more reason for Jolla to focus on supporting developers of native apps (hint hint: payed apps).
And they could, but they're not stupid - it'd be DOA. No Dalvik = no official WhatsApp. That means next to no sales in Europe, which is the primary market for any Sailfish device. Google know that they're stopping competition by preventing the release of Android-compatible competitors.
Last edited by herpderp; 2015-04-23 at 16:44.
| The Following User Says Thank You to herpderp For This Useful Post: | ||
 |
|
2015-04-23
, 17:03
|
|
Posts: 2,448 |
Thanked: 9,523 times |
Joined on Aug 2010
@ Wigan, UK
|
#26
|
Originally Posted by herpderp
It is the same. It's Google trying to force their services onto device manufacturers by preventing the release of devices that come without those services. Those services are being bundled into Android in the same way that IE was bundled into Windoze. The fact that Android is open source is irrelevant to this. It would be like Linus Torvalds saying 'you can't release a Linux device without my personal approval'.
That's not the same thing. For one, IE was never open source. Anybody can take Android's source and fork it, they just can't release devices with it and label it as official android (they won't get play services for it, for example).
__________________
'Men of high position are allowed, by a special act of grace, to accomodate their reasoning to the answer they need. Logic is only required in those of lesser rank.' - J K Galbraith
My website
GitHub
'Men of high position are allowed, by a special act of grace, to accomodate their reasoning to the answer they need. Logic is only required in those of lesser rank.' - J K Galbraith
My website
GitHub
| The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to marxian For This Useful Post: | ||
|
|
2015-04-23
, 17:31
|
|
Posts: 329 |
Thanked: 422 times |
Joined on Feb 2011
@ derpton
|
#27
|
Originally Posted by marxian
I disagree. You can create an Android handset without Play Services and release it, without anyone suing you, see for example Amazon.
It is the same. It's Google trying to force their services onto device manufacturers by preventing the release of devices that come without those services. Those services are being bundled into Android in the same way that IE was bundled into Windoze. The fact that Android is open source is irrelevant to this. It would be like Linus Torvalds saying 'you can't release a Linux device without my personal approval'.
OTOH you could never release a device with Windows and leave out IE. Even removing it was impossible, which you can do on Android if you root your device.
| The Following User Says Thank You to herpderp For This Useful Post: | ||
|
|
2015-04-23
, 17:52
|
|
Posts: 118 |
Thanked: 229 times |
Joined on Oct 2014
@ UK
|
#28
|
Originally Posted by herpderp
Actually, no, they can't. Aliyun is an AOSP fork without Google Play services (much like Amazon's Fire OS). Google stopped Acer from releasing a phone with the OS, as it violates the Open Handset Alliance terms.
I disagree. You can create an Android handset without Play Services and release it, without anyone suing you, see for example Amazon.
OTOH you could never release a device with Windows and leave out IE. Even removing it was impossible, which you can do on Android if you root your device.
Alibaba: "Our partner was notified by Google that if the product runs Aliyun OS, Google will terminate its Android-related cooperation and other technology licensing with our partner"
They're leveraging their extremely popular (market share %) OS + app suite (which OEMs can't unbundle) to effectively force OEMs into contractual agreements which forbid them from selling devices with competing Operating Systems. This is anti-competition.
Google aren't allowed leverage the popularity of their OS + app suite to stifle competition - it's textbook abuse of monopoly. Google knows that if these OEMs try to 'go it alone' without Google's Android (and all that's bundled with it), they'll crash and burn. Much like how Microsoft knew OEMs would accept IE being bundled, because going it alone (with Linux or their own OS) would not be viable.
As a footnote, do you know who manufactures the Fire OS (Kindle Fire) tablets? Quanta Computing. Members of the Open Handset Alliance (which include the majority of Android OEMs) are contractually forbidden to produce Android devices based on forks of the OS.
This is a fairly good read regarding what's being discussed in this thread.
Last edited by From Vertu with Love; 2015-04-23 at 18:01.
| The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to From Vertu with Love For This Useful Post: | ||
 |
|
2015-04-23
, 18:32
|
|
Posts: 1,389 |
Thanked: 1,857 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
@ Israel
|
#29
|
Originally Posted by From Vertu with Love
With all these said, there are ROMs of android without Google services and you can release phone with it, you lose Google support, but if you can replace it(provide alternative) it's not a problem. So it's not the same as IE, which was hard corded and forced as part of the code, while Google services are are just more like pass to google's eco system. In other words, IE is there in code, you can't uninstall it, but you are not forced to use it, while Google services are there and you can choose to not provide them, but you loose apps, maps and etc and in some ways you loose users.
Actually, no, they can't. Aliyun is an AOSP fork without Google Play services (much like Amazon's Fire OS). Google stopped Acer from releasing a phone with the OS, as it violates the Open Handset Alliance terms.
Alibaba: "Our partner was notified by Google that if the product runs Aliyun OS, Google will terminate its Android-related cooperation and other technology licensing with our partner"
They're leveraging their extremely popular (market share %) OS + app suite (which OEMs can't unbundle) to effectively force OEMs into contractual agreements which forbid them from selling devices with competing Operating Systems. This is anti-competition.
Google aren't allowed leverage the popularity of their OS + app suite to stifle competition - it's textbook abuse of monopoly. Google knows that if these OEMs try to 'go it alone' without Google's Android (and all that's bundled with it), they'll crash and burn. Much like how Microsoft knew OEMs would accept IE being bundled, because going it alone (with Linux or their own OS) would not be viable.
As a footnote, do you know who manufactures the Fire OS (Kindle Fire) tablets? Quanta Computing. Members of the Open Handset Alliance (which include the majority of Android OEMs) are contractually forbidden to produce Android devices based on forks of the OS.
This is a fairly good read regarding what's being discussed in this thread.
CM are going to release ROM with alternative to Google services this year AFAIK
| The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ZogG For This Useful Post: | ||
 |
|
2015-04-23
, 20:48
|
|
Posts: 1,716 |
Thanked: 3,007 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Warsaw, Poland
|
#30
|
Originally Posted by ZogG
Take a read how did that work for Amazon and Samsung: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/...ans-necessary/
With all these said, there are ROMs of android without Google services and you can release phone with it, you lose Google support, but if you can replace it(provide alternative) it's not a problem.
__________________
smoku @xiaoka.com (SMTP/XMPP) ...:.:....:... pebbled . Poky Fish : sixaxis . psx4m . uae4all
Jolla Phone post-mortem . . . . . . . . . . -> 1+1 VGN-UX390N
smoku @xiaoka.com (SMTP/XMPP) ...:.:....:... pebbled . Poky Fish : sixaxis . psx4m . uae4all
Jolla Phone post-mortem . . . . . . . . . . -> 1+1 VGN-UX390N
It's why there won't be an HTC Kindle, a Sony BlackBerry, an Acer Aliyun - or an Alien Dalvik-toting Sailfish OS device from any one of these manufacturers.
It means that for for HTC's bread and butter (smartphones), Google can leverage an unfair amount of control over what they do.