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Is there a section to talk about Java ME? Apps, etc. (3)
to General by Kalatti - 16 hrs, 36 mins ago - more...
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2010-04-22
, 16:47
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#42
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Originally Posted by jnwi
A point that's actually marginal and not a reflection of the big picture I'm addressing-- and gerbick did respond to me.
No, I think he has a point. How many of us have bought the N900 as a kneejerk reaction against Apple rather than having a plan? People like you have been here for a long time, but I was happy using Symbian until idealism brought me here. That's nice and everything, but I haven't actually contributed anything.
In other words I saw the straw gathering...
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Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
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Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2010-04-22
, 16:47
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#43
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Originally Posted by Texrat
Please don't drag this into overblown pedantic or semantic trivia based on the weight of words without taking into context the conversational intonation of my chosen verbiage. Simply put, I'm using connotation, not denotation of any variation of the word "hatred".
Gerbick, you're too smart to trivialize the issue like you just did. "Hatred"??? Come on-- that's sophomoric. C-.
I'll gladly debate this subject on objective merits but not THAT.
If it suits you, use the word "dislike" if that will get a better response.
If I were using the word "iPhone", then hatred (denotation) would be pretty damn accurate given the knee-jerk reactions around here sometimes.
Now, with that said, don't dismiss what I'm saying. Simply put, all of this freedom has netted not much. Like my father once said... "people take freedom as to meaning they can do a whole lot of nothing..."
And that's what I see. A fractured bunch, waiting on updates and apps with no real corporate apps in sight, on a platform that can compile a few languages that support the admin types on their phone that if they're not careful might lead to a re-flash but no real attempts at an expansion of the phone as a platform - outside of the wifi hotspot app, I admit that is pretty darn fly.
The freedom to do everything has so far produced nothing.
And yes... I'm totally playing devil's advocate
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2010-04-22
, 16:51
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#44
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Originally Posted by gerbick
The "walled garden", through it's closedness perhaps inadvertently, provides direction, cohesion, and leadership. There's a path to follow. It makes it simpler for the vendor to provide things, like a commercial app store, because it knows the type of apps that will be supplied through it. Documentation and apis can be developed knowing there are only a subset of languages that will be used, books start appearing on Amazon as the target audience is much more defined. End users aren't bothered how the app was written or if it was deved on locked down iphone sdk on a required Mac or open source Eclipse, only what that app does for them. This open sourced experiment of the n900 seems to offer plenty of potential but along with that are more complexities, fragmentation, and very little leadership from Nokia. And that's reflected in application development and customer base.
This whole "walled garden" hatred has honestly produced nothing when all of this freedom has been given on the N900. Absolutely nothing so far. An odd upgrade path that's not fully laid out by corporate (yet), a total lack of apps that improve upon functionality, developers waiting to hear if their apps will be ok in the next iteration fully, already installed apps not updated, et al..
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2010-04-22
, 16:53
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#45
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Originally Posted by gerbick
That's Nokia dropping the ball, it says nothing about openness.
This whole "walled garden" hatred has honestly produced nothing when all of this freedom has been given on the N900. Absolutely nothing so far.
If that's freedom, it stinks. Being able to pop open terminal, gain root on a tacked on phone experience on a tablet isn't freedom.
There's nothing inherently wrong with the Apple ecosystem, IMO, except for how Apple denies users the ability to side load software. I would have far less of an issue with it if you could do so without having to fight Apple to do it.
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2010-04-22
, 16:55
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#46
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Originally Posted by kojacker
Don't take it personal by me snipping the rest of your reply; however that's what I'm ultimately building up to.
The "walled garden", through it's closedness perhaps inadvertently, provides direction, cohesion, and leadership.
Nokia can, should, has had a multitude of chances to lead, direct and give this platform the cohesion from the announcement of Maemo5 to now MeeGo. And they've yet to do it.
And to be honest, I'm not so sure that Intel's influence will be enough to do it with MeeGo. We shall see, but my expectations are so low mainly because of prior experiences with the 770 and N810.
Nokia isn't seizing the opportunity to direct, even on this "wide open" platform when they should.
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2010-04-22
, 16:55
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#47
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Originally Posted by gerbick
I dragged nothing anywhere gerbick. You're on another of your rants where you hyperfocus on irrelevant aspects of the issue.
Please don't drag this into overblown pedantic or semantic trivia based on the weight of words without taking into context the conversational intonation of my chosen verbiage. Simply put, I'm using connotation, not denotation of any variation of the word "hatred".
Forget fringe elements and reactionary motives. People driving open source solutions are not doing so out of negative motivations but rather positive ones. And it's more than semantics because your statements are right in line with the dangerous Microsoft and Apple FUD that has been working against the success of open source for years.
Blaming rabid adherents for the state of the solution is disingenuous. The problems with open source lie entirely within the political elements that seek to perpetuate a tired old status quo that needs to die so we can finally move on to what's next.
As the open-closed war continues to harden, things are going to get ugly for all of us. And if closed source wins (as it seems to be now with ridiculous software patents, bizarre IP protection schemes and the like), we're ALL screwed.
And as we contendly lap at the closed app store pools, we are applying the ointment to our own asses.
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2010-04-22
, 16:56
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@ ...standing right behind you...
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#48
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Originally Posted by gerbick
Probably the most honest sum up of how this experiment is failing. In three years Nokia have moved at a snail's pace to accomplish an OS and device that others did in shorter time.
This whole "walled garden" hatred has honestly produced nothing when all of this freedom has been given on the N900. Absolutely nothing so far. An odd upgrade path that's not fully laid out by corporate (yet), a total lack of apps that improve upon functionality, developers waiting to hear if their apps will be ok in the next iteration fully, already installed apps not updated, et al.
If that's freedom, it stinks. Being able to pop open terminal, gain root on a tacked on phone experience on a tablet isn't freedom. It's being part of an experiment.
No real blame can be put on 'the community'. It is what it is, to a large extent a rather vile bunch of Apple haters that places more importance on repeating "I can gain root" and calling people "trolls" whenever an expression that differs is brought up.
The real blame falls on Nokia for half-assing the os being open sourced, for not following up on software updates on delivered applications, for mis-managing what could had been a good community of development (there are moderators where...?) and for having very poor forward planning and realizing the importance of getting things to market.
Then again, it's Nokia's money and they can do whatever they want with it. I still adore my N810 and I am extremely grateful to the people that still develop for it and I am thankful to Nokia for developing that hardware.
In the end, if you as a user or developer have enjoyed or even gotten value from this experiment then where's the harm? It's a tablet/phone/gadget. End of the day it doesn't matter. Once it's all said and done the only semi-permanent stain will be the one on Nokia. Not for 'being brave' to try out something new (which is great) but for showing a surprising amount of incompetency and ignorance in the space which will, personally, influence my purchase pattern for years to come.
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.N810 experience: Since 6/2009
My Twenty Favorite OS2008 Applications:
AutoScan, Diablo5 Theme, Dialcentral, DragLock, EmelFM2, FlipClock, gPodder, Headphoned, Knots 2, Maemo Mapper, mPlayer, openNTPD, OpenSSH, Panucci, Personal Launcher, QuickNote, Seqretary, SlideLock, Telescope, YellowNotes
.N810 experience: Since 6/2009
My Twenty Favorite OS2008 Applications:
AutoScan, Diablo5 Theme, Dialcentral, DragLock, EmelFM2, FlipClock, gPodder, Headphoned, Knots 2, Maemo Mapper, mPlayer, openNTPD, OpenSSH, Panucci, Personal Launcher, QuickNote, Seqretary, SlideLock, Telescope, YellowNotes
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2010-04-22
, 17:01
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#49
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Originally Posted by wmarone
In such a wide open platform, direction needs to be offered. In open source, too many ideas, design by committee, or even free thought still needs to be somewhat directed to make sure their solutions and software work on a platform (for instance). I still see both separately... and lacking.
That's Nokia dropping the ball, it says nothing about openness.
Control on that level is freedom. Having to fight the vendor for control is the antithesis of freedom.
There's nothing inherently wrong with the Apple ecosystem, IMO, except for how Apple denies users the ability to side load software. I would have far less of an issue with it if you could do so without having to fight Apple to do it.
I dislike the fact that my money has a louder voice than my opinion inside of the Apple ecosystem. I'm not even an user. I'm a source of income only. I'm a dollar. I'm a number.
With Maemo, I could have a voice... even one that the community might get behind. But not there.
And yet... I'm starting to feel as ignored by Nokia as I do with Apple. "Thanks for your N900 purchase... we'll update you when we feel like it..." - Nokia
Gee. Thanks. Can I at least get a few games outside of Angry Birds for it? Can I sync with my Mac without having to hack it and lose that ability next PR update?
(for the record, I don't own a N900)
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2010-04-22
, 17:09
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#50
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Originally Posted by Texrat
Always so personal man. Is this how counter-thought is greeted?
I dragged nothing anywhere gerbick. You're on another of your rants where you hyperfocus on irrelevant aspects of the issue.
Forget fringe elements and reactionary motives. People driving open source solutions are not doing so out of negative motivations but rather positive ones.
And it's more than semantics because your statements are right in line with the dangerous Microsoft and Apple FUD that has been working against the success of open source for years.
My stance has nothing to do with Apple nor Microsoft's stances either.
Blaming rabid adherents for the state of the solution is disingenuous. The problems with open source lie entirely within the political elements that seek to perpetuate a tired old status quo that needs to die so we can finally move on to what's next.
As the open-closed war continues to harden, things are going to get ugly for all of us. And if closed source wins (as it seems to be now with ridiculous software patents, bizarre IP protection schemes and the like), we're ALL screwed.
And as we contendly lap at the closed app store pools, we are applying the ointment to our own asses.
And stop taking my comments somewhere I'm nowhere near. I swear... sometimes you guys take statements to prior arguments with other folks that don't include me. I'm neither open source or closed source. I've stated it over and over in prior statements - I'm a consumer... what I use and like, I support. I also like to have certain things that support my stance as a consumer (mostly) and that's my platform.
None of this open-closed source nonsense. Save that noise for the right person. I ain't it. Read my words literally... I pick and choose them carefully.
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Last edited by jnwi; 2010-04-22 at 16:45.