I'm really surprised that so many people still believe in Jolla. They are acting like that from very begining. Without much effort I can easily throw few examples:

1. No official statements what was simcard holder problem all about. Just "send to care" and we will fix it. Openness?
2. Problem with loose battery (people puting pieces of paper). Where is official statement?
3. Reboot and other problems - some people have already sent their phones to Care 4 times because of that kind of problems. Was it worth to buy a phone that you cannot use most of the time, because it's in the service?

Jolla had, has and probably will have (looking at their past record) problems with communication. It's a startup with mentality inside of some old, established corporation, resistant to change like Nokia in most areas was. Of course there are some nice moves to show that the image is different and they are an open company, but in most cases it's nothing more than PR. In the end people like Dillon or Mosconi are the people that were connected with the Meego in Nokia. How did it go when they were there? Was Elop the only reason for Meego failure, what about those big delays of Meego that some guy from Finland writes about:
http://taskumuro.com/artikkelit/the-...of-nokia-meego

Now to the topic of company acting wrong, but employees being ok. It's totally wrong statement. Jolla claimed many times that it is a company with a flat structure, where every single employees voice does matters a lot. Then why such problems as mentioned on begining happen? Where are those voices of the employees inside? Maybe it's not like we were told, but some authoritarian group is deciding? Otherwise such mistakes, including the ones with communication wouldn't happen so frequently.

In my opinion Jolla doesn't really care about the community. Do you remember Hildon Foundation tensions with Jolla at very beginning. You know who wrote the answer? I do know - not CEO, not even Dillon nor Mosconi, it was written by Carsten Munk, he told me that. Jolla is not interested in supporting such indepedent places like TMO, it's something you cannot easily control. Munk once said to me that he would prefer for TMO to burn completely and disappear. For such people community is good if it follows them and does what they want. For a long time they supressed critical voices, petting those loyal, who always support them with good word.

Now the replacable battery problem will be probably handled because there is a storm around it now and Jolla only reacts when there are storms that could harm their PR and made people walking away. In other cases they seem to be in a deep sleep.

PS. Do you remeber Sailfish Silica components promise 1.5 year ago that it will be open? It still didn't happen - C++ side is still closed like it was.

Here's what Felipe recently did to the pirate pad for the meeting scheduled soon:
http://piratepad.net/SailfishOSSMeetings
Then look at the chat section, is that the behaviour of an objective, mature, & fair minded person, I really wonder.
Fortunately there seems to be some archives... >.>
http://piratepad.net/ep/pad/view/Sai...tings/rev.8888

Jalyst and you seem to use those logical fallacies now:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/genetic
&
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

Jalyst argue with opinions and not by using statements that someone is wrong elsewhere or discrediting that person. Thanks!

Add to that list
No available base firmware for re-flash

Another example of Jollas bad communication was the requests for avilability of a flashing tool. It was very late in that discussion that it came up fastboot is used for flashing device. Still, no available images to reflash the device.
On top. Despite their expressions that some concerns can not be adressed because of 'security' and 'protecting users', it is very easy to create a complete brick, due to the design of the NAND and that it is possible to entirely erase the complete device by a simple dd (or even less) which could wipe even the bootloader.
This is not only a concern restricted to the availability, but also repairs and warranty, due to how easy Jolla made it to enable developer mode.
This is quite contradictionary to their conecerns about security and protecting the device and end-user.
Yes, they somewhat listened, and copied a community recovery, which is useless in many combination of both user-errors, but also with said reboot problems (which occured to me) which could actually disable the bootloader.
Also, the decision to lock the bootloader, is concerning, for the same reasoning. This adds to the likelyhood of a user having to return the device to a out-of-warranty repair.
I dont like the use of Qualcom for bootloader functionality, I dont like that the internal wifi chip is Qualcom

Exactly, the bootloader is a similar problem. It seems that Jolla wants people to pay for servicing the problems that on other smartphones are solved by simple reflash. Nice business model... Who is more open here? Jolla that you can have on it only Sailfish OS (despite it is Android compatibile hardware) or those selling phones with Android that can be reflashed with Sailfish, Ubuntu Touch or other OSes? Not mentioining comparing prices, spec and overall quality of hardware.

To be clear,

I had no intention to address your post, I've no time/inclination to drill down into such detail right now.
I just happened to stumble across your recent vandalising of that PiratePad shortly after you posted here.

Many of the points you raised were fair, some were flat-out incorrect/outdated though...
One must wonder if you know that, & just prefer to ignore it, so you can paint a more negative picture.

Maybe later I will address every single point, but hopefully someone else will in the meantime.

The IRC meeting's just started by the way, for folks who want to add thoughts/criticisms there.
Although really it's expected you've outlined your points in the agenda beforehand.

*EDIT*
Apparently it's still 15UTC, not 10UTC, they are considering the latter to help those way outside EU & EastUS time-zones.

Spare batteries are for Jolla employees only:
https://twitter.com/cybette/status/482547899642171392

Jolla clients don't have that good ;-)

Because SIM holder sensor is wrong-by-design and Jolla have not balls to say it in open..

Jolla (the company) does seem to be taking an awful lot of time to provide additional accessories, services and information beyond the stock device. We still don't have decent other halfs. We still don't have many heavily requested software features, some of which were written eight months ago. We still don't have concrete information about the successor to this phone, given that it will be released over six months after announcement. And in this case, we still don't have spare batteries.

I can live without the last point...as long as the original works long enough. But all of them make me worry about Jolla; they don't seem to have learnt from many of Nokia's critical mistakes. Jolla did a great job hyping their phone last year, they need to be just as dynamic this year to keep up the momentum. Otherwise I can't see many more potential punters bothering in the future.

This discussion has -as I see it- become dominated by different flavors of criticism towards Jolla... Which I will understand as many members of this forum demand alot more from their devices than the Average Joe. But there's still a point where criticism turns from constructive and discussion provoking to destructive and conflict provoking. In some posts at least the intent of it is evident. ... Everyone of course can judge by theirselves what is worth of their contribution and what is not; what criticism is good to address and might lead to a good-spirited and constructive discussion -which is important in my mind- and what does not. Definitely different interests define which point is important to address and which is not, so I only speak from my own point of view what I value and what I expect from a discussions in general when I state that I dislike where this discussion has gone and is going. It's just my opinion

I'd like to remind that Jolla is still a startup company, or a very small company with very little resources to spare at least. Expectations most often don't meet the demands when it comes to even large companies, at least the expectations of the most hard-core members of this community. A small and fragile company like Jolla can fulfill them, if they want and are able to, but as I see it it will be very slow, as their resources are low, and their efforts need to be highly focused on specific great goals that will (hopefully) move them forward (and keep them from perishing). So I understand that some things will not be available from them for some time.

I personally can live without a replaceable internal battery even though I do except I can buy one at some point of time -sooner rather than later. I have a couple of external batteries and can live with them.

PS: anybody heard how the extra-battery TOH project is going? Haven't heard anything about it lately...