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	ZogG	2016-01-18 , 20:31
	Posts: 1,389 \| Thanked: 1,857 times \| Joined on Feb 2010 @ Israel	#3871

Originally Posted by rcolistete

And you should learn from history. By reading.

Go study the history of many companies making mobile OS for smartphones and tablets. Like many years and US$ millions spent by Google and Apple with Android (3.x was tablet specific) and iOS. Like the first versions (of Andriod, iOS, etc) in the first years were very feature-wise limited.

But they were first and it was a lot of years ago. It's like making car and telling first cards did not have airbags (it was luxury at some point as even not all cars had safety belts at some point too). But it was the beginning of the "mobile" era and iphones and ipdas conquer it, they came with no rivals and had a chance of doing it slowly. Today is the era of mobile, embedded and there is no more dominants even on desktops. There are new platforms (web, gaming, media, even messaging is platform). The era of different hw tech. Multiple services and whole eco systems. The way of programming both in patterns to the way the work done(scrums, agile and etc, github, communities, even new languages)
You can point how X did 10 years ago, but it would not take you anywhere forward. you need to act and act fast. You need to grow strong size at least something.

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	pichlo	2016-01-18 , 20:35
	Posts: 6,445 \| Thanked: 20,981 times \| Joined on Sep 2012 @ UK	#3872

Originally Posted by JulmaHerra

In Jolla's case, they had native drivers for NovaThor but after ST-Ericsson decied to split and NovaThor SoC was cancelled, they were left without native drivers. So they created libhybris so they can use Android drivers. But it dictated several other things, which forced the rewrite and some other changes (Qt version, Wayland etc).

But of course, you in your infinite wisdom would have avoided that. You just weren't there to tell them.

If you need to rewrite the UI every time you change the drivers, you are doing it terribly, horribly wrong. Even Windows 2.0 was already written in a way that was hardware independent. You do not need infinite wisdom, just two working brain cells and some very basic understanding of software architecture.

Let me explain it to you in a way that may be easier to understand. Rewriting the UI because the display drivers have changed is like rewriting an email client because you switched from cable to WiFi. Rewriting the UI because the display size has changed is like rewriting an email client because your network speed has changed.

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	pichlo	2016-01-18 , 20:38
	Posts: 6,445 \| Thanked: 20,981 times \| Joined on Sep 2012 @ UK	#3873

Originally Posted by rcolistete

And you should learn from history.

How about Jolla learning from history? They are a living proof of the old adage, "Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it."

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MINKIN2	2016-01-18 , 20:56
Posts: 1,326 \| Thanked: 1,524 times \| Joined on Mar 2010	#3874

Originally Posted by pichlo

How about Jolla learning from history? They are a living proof of the old adage, "Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it."

And the same could be said for ourselves. We trusted a bunch of Nokia bod's to develop a device and follow it through to fruition. And what have they done? Changed their leaders, split their camps and spin off a list of bullcrap that leads to endless debates.

More fool us, I say.

	Dave999	2016-01-18 , 21:24
	Posts: 7,074 \| Thanked: 9,069 times \| Joined on Oct 2009 @ Moon! It's not the East or the West side... it's the Dark Side	#3875

Guys, you are so fooled.

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JulmaHerra	2016-01-18 , 21:30
Posts: 285 \| Thanked: 1,900 times \| Joined on Feb 2010	#3876

Originally Posted by pichlo

If you need to rewrite the UI every time you change the drivers, you are doing it terribly, horribly wrong.

So, they should have written it in Qt5 since from the beginning (which at time was unstable) and using Wayland, which effectively made it difficult to port many existing apps from Linux world? Do you intentionally choose unstable branches often in your work?

Every time you change the platform (like X to Wayland) and application framework (Qt4 -> Qt5), there are things you need to rewrite, no matter how good your software architecture is. If new driver doesn't work with your old stuff, you will need to rewrite. It's really as simple as that. It was not desirable, but it was the only way they were able to produce a smartphone - additionally it made the situation easier in the long run as it can be easily adapted to standard Android HW. But if you really, truly insist, we can agree they did everything terribly, horribly wrong by using native drivers, stable X and stable Qt. Of course you would never do such a foolish, outrageously and by all means utterly indefensible act of unimaginable stupidity.

	pichlo	2016-01-18 , 22:00
	Posts: 6,445 \| Thanked: 20,981 times \| Joined on Sep 2012 @ UK	#3877

Originally Posted by JulmaHerra

Every time you change the platform (like X to Wayland) and application framework (Qt4 -> Qt5), there are things you need to rewrite, no matter how good your software architecture is. If new driver doesn't work with your old stuff, you will need to rewrite. It's really as simple as that.

Correct me if I am wrong but neither the change from X to Wayland nor from QT4 to QT5 happened any time near the tablet release. So using them as an excuse for rewriting the UI for the tablet is completely off. Second, neither change has anything to do with high level stuff such as whether the UI should scroll left and right or up and down. Third, keeping trying to bring drivers into this smacks of desperation. You do not rewrite the browser every time you swap the network card. And fourth, you are right, changing the platform may involve having to rewrite some code. It is how much of it needs rewriting that is the true measure of how well it was designed. I maintain that if you have to rewrite the entire UI because your display aspect ratio has changed then you have a serious, fundamental problem with your design.

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gerbick	2016-01-19 , 02:39
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Originally Posted by ZogG

So they rewrite and still did not made UI scalable for tablet?

I'd say this is a hazardous assumption. But to be completely honest, assuming the opposite is equally hazardous. I'd caution to wait for confirmation but I think this is actually incorrect.

Again why they had to do the salfish OS 2 which is mostly adaptation to screen size.

Updates were also deeper than just visual or cosmetic. A lot more than that. SDK, workflows, tweaks, updates to core apps (browser, mail for instance) and other things. I'd almost have to state that scalability was added to the mix - seeing SailfishOS 2.x on a Raspberry Pi adds to that. And it's a different, lesser screen size than either the phone or tablet.

Especially when as you mentioned maemo and meego did it before and they should know better if they came from maemo and meego. Basically you should learn from mistake, don't you?

Maemo was never ported to any other device. MeeGo, pretty much the same. SailfishOS has been seen on many other devices in different degrees of working - the Nexus 5 port is pretty darn complete from what I've read.

Maemo and MeeGo never had to scale - they were oft one device, at a time per OS version.

JulmaHerra	2016-01-19 , 07:31
Posts: 285 \| Thanked: 1,900 times \| Joined on Feb 2010	#3879

Originally Posted by pichlo

Correct me if I am wrong but neither the change from X to Wayland nor from QT4 to QT5 happened any time near the tablet release.

No. Discussion was about "why didn't they do it scalable since from the beginning and had to do it later for Tablet", to which I responded why scalability was not highest priority six months before Jolla phone was delivered. UI was not rewritten completely for Tablet, it was made scalable and workflow was simplified to ease the learning curve. Please read what we are discussing before launching another "oh he's letting them get away with murder once again"-tirade.

r0kk3rz	2016-01-19 , 09:03
Posts: 440 \| Thanked: 2,256 times \| Joined on Jul 2014	#3880

Originally Posted by pichlo

And fourth, you are right, changing the platform may involve having to rewrite some code. It is how much of it needs rewriting that is the true measure of how well it was designed.

Not entirely.

Having to use android drivers meant having to use android HWComposer, which meant ditching X for Wayland which can use custom file descriptors, and shifting to QT5 because it supports GLES2.0 scene graph, which meant Qt Quick 2.0 had to be used.

No idea what the Sailfish UI was originally written in, but if it was Qt Widgets then very little can be reused, as its a completely different way of defining UIs.

This is the specific situation that was being referred to, and it sounds like a bucket load of work to me. Switching major frameworks is not something you can handwave away.

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