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aegis is offline aegis
2015-01-30 , 11:27
Posts: 702 | Thanked: 2,059 times | Joined on Feb 2011 @ UK
#301
I'm puzzled as to what proprietary interoperability standards people think Apple use. Other than Facetime/iMessage I can't really think of any. IChat used to use jabber.

Their mail uses IMAP, calendar is CalDAV, contacts are CardDAV, cloud storage is WebDAV.

They don't support Microsoft's mtp at the os level but they do support the ptp subset in iPhoto.

Jolla's support of all these open standards is dismal unfortunately.
 

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thedead1440 is offline thedead1440
2015-01-30 , 11:49
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#302
Originally Posted by nodevel View Post

Mentioning MTP is quite nice, as it was also made by Microsoft and there were quite a few comments on TMO complaining about Jolla supporting it
IIRC, the furore was over not having USB mass storage as an option but MTP only. Anyway doesn't make a difference as since the N9 I have always used sftp for my transfers including on my android devices. MTP is such a pos after all
 

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Copernicus is offline Copernicus
2015-01-30 , 11:56
Posts: 1,986 | Thanked: 7,698 times | Joined on Dec 2010 @ Dayton, Ohio
#303
Originally Posted by aegis View Post
I'm absolutely fine with Jolla doing their own thing BUT there are consequences with their limited interoperability with the outside world.
And that's what I'm saying. If the "consequences" of not doing things the Apple/Microsoft way are that great, then only Apple/Microsoft can innovate. No point in designing your own hardware; the big guys have already won before you even start.

The exfat situation means I can't do this...

http://petapixel.com/2013/03/26/how-...l-hard-drives/
Wow! That seems awfully complex. Why not just plug the external HDD directly into the tablet? USB-OTG was designed for just that sort of task, wasn't it?

EDIT: My mistake, this article was about backing up camera photos to the tablet and then to the HDD. So, my next question: why not just plug the camera directly into the tablet?

The use of Microsoft's crappy mtp protocol means I have to use sftp on non-Windows or non-linux systems.
??? MTP is the standard, right? It's created by Microsoft. The fact that Apple doesn't support it just means that Apple is trying to do the same thing Jolla is, right?

(My head is starting to spin here -- is Microsoft bad for creating the MTP standard, or is Apple bad for not following the MTP standard, or is Jolla now bad for actually following the MTP standard?)

Most of these limitations I'd put down to simply lack of development resource and that they would get done eventually. But that's obviously not the case if they're going to ditch consumer oriented features because mouthy Linux fundamentalists don't want to pay Microsoft for another licence on a device that uses dozens of proprietary licensed tech already.
Well, but that's the thing -- Jolla's developers aren't following mouthy Linux fundamentalists. They ARE mouthy Linux fundamentalists.
Last edited by Copernicus; 2015-01-30 at 12:03.
 

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JulmaHerra is offline JulmaHerra
2015-01-30 , 12:12
Posts: 285 | Thanked: 1,900 times | Joined on Feb 2010
#304
Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
If the only way for Jolla to go "mainstream" is to slavishly copy every design decision made by the big guys, I see no point for Jolla to exist in the first place...
It's hard to go mainstream if you despise compatibility with common standards completely. To do that you need:

- strong brand
- strong family of devices and services ("ecosystem" if you will)
- your incompatible solutions should be better than alternatives
- boatload of cash to communicate those improvements to mainstream audience

However, if the only reason for incompatibility is unwillingness to pay for some license (or more accurately, unwillingness to pay if it goes to Microsoft) then it's like pissing in ones own shoe. So far I have seen absolutely no argument about possible technical improvements by choosing some other file system over exFAT - quite the contrary, many suggestions for alternative FS for SD-card actually are worse, for example in regard to durability of those cards (oh yeah, go ahead and use journalling FS in one...). MTP saves something with people who have Windows-based computers, but there is no easing for those who need interoperability with ie. cameras.

So, my main argument is, as it has always been, be different in things you can do better. But never break compatibility if you cannot deliver something better. I can see many things better in Jolla and Sailfish compared to alternatives. Unfortunately this is not one of those cases, neither from technical or user experience point of view.
 

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aegis is offline aegis
2015-01-30 , 12:36
Posts: 702 | Thanked: 2,059 times | Joined on Feb 2011 @ UK
#305
Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
And that's what I'm saying. If the "consequences" of not doing things the Apple/Microsoft way are that great, then only Apple/Microsoft can innovate. No point in designing your own hardware; the big guys have already won before you even start.
In this case Jolla is not doing sdxc card support the SD Card Association way which is the way even the little guys do it.


Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
Wow! That seems awfully complex. Why not just plug the external HDD directly into the tablet? USB-OTG was designed for just that sort of task, wasn't it?
Tablets generally only have one usb port so he was using the tablet as an interim storage space. He could have solved it with a hub probably. But in any case Sailfish doesn't support usb otg iirc.

Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
EDIT: My mistake, this article was about backing up camera photos to the tablet and then to the HDD. So, my next question: why not just plug the camera directly into the tablet?
Because tablets generally do not support host mode mtp. They generally appear as slave devices.


Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
??? MTP is the standard, right? It's created by Microsoft. The fact that Apple doesn't support it just means that Apple is trying to do the same thing Jolla is, right?
They support ptp in iPhoto because that is what cameras support.They haven't bothered to support mtp yet.

Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
(My head is starting to spin here -- is Microsoft bad for creating the MTP standard, or is Apple bad for not following the MTP standard, or is Jolla now bad for actually following the MTP standard?)
Apple does need to do something about MTP. Google's Android File Transfer app used to work but broke about two OS versions ago.


Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
Well, but that's the thing -- Jolla's developers aren't following mouthy Linux fundamentalists. They ARE mouthy Linux fundamentalists.
That obviously isn't the case as the phone is full of proprietary tech often at the expense of support for open standards. See my previous list of the open standards Apple use that Jolla are dismal at using.
 

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rcolistete is offline rcolistete
2015-01-30 , 12:46
Posts: 1,269 | Thanked: 3,961 times | Joined on May 2011 @ Brazil
#306
Originally Posted by Dave999 View Post
Jolla can't be trusted.
...
Customers is the most valuable Jolla got...
Troll behaviour detected...

Jolla has listened to the community in many aspects of the Jolla smartphone (features of Sailfish) and Jolla Tablet. Much more than Apple or Google listen to iOS and Android community.

The problem about exFAT on microSD is the community was/is divided. The more active side of Sailfish OS community asked for no exFAT licenses at all and Jolla agreed with the majority of the voices. That is all.

By the way, I was in favor of exFAT for Jolla Tablet, as the license per tablet is a very cheap and it would be easier to recommend Jolla Tablet for any user (without Linux experience).
__________________
Python, C/C++, Qt and CAS developer. For Maemo/MeeGo/Sailfish :
Integral, Derivative, Limit - calculating mathematical integrals, derivatives and limits. SymPy - Computer Algebra System.
MatPlotLib - 2D & 3D plots in Python. IPython - Python interactive shell.
-- My blog about mobile & scientific computing ---
Sailfish : Sony Xperia X, Gemini, Jolla, Jolla C, Jolla Tablet, Nexus 4. Nokia N9, N900, N810.
 

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rcolistete is offline rcolistete
2015-01-30 , 12:53
Posts: 1,269 | Thanked: 3,961 times | Joined on May 2011 @ Brazil
#307
Originally Posted by pichlo View Post
What is a problem though is that Jolla had announced that unfortunate stretch goal.
Please, read the Jolla announcement. It said microSD 128GB support. It didn't say exFAT support. Now Jolla says Jolla Tablet will have microSD 128GB support, but without exFAT.

Originally Posted by pichlo View Post
I also think they should never have but they did. And the goal was reached. Yes, it was a wrong goal (IMO) but going back on their word is a big no-no. Not the lack of an exFAT support. The lack of trust.
It is not going back on their word.

Jolla trusted the community here, in TJC, etc. It followed and implemented the community wishes.

Ah, it is not lack of trust. It is lack of properly reading Jolla announcements.
__________________
Python, C/C++, Qt and CAS developer. For Maemo/MeeGo/Sailfish :
Integral, Derivative, Limit - calculating mathematical integrals, derivatives and limits. SymPy - Computer Algebra System.
MatPlotLib - 2D & 3D plots in Python. IPython - Python interactive shell.
-- My blog about mobile & scientific computing ---
Sailfish : Sony Xperia X, Gemini, Jolla, Jolla C, Jolla Tablet, Nexus 4. Nokia N9, N900, N810.
Last edited by rcolistete; 2015-01-30 at 14:11.
 

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rcolistete is offline rcolistete
2015-01-30 , 13:11
Posts: 1,269 | Thanked: 3,961 times | Joined on May 2011 @ Brazil
#308
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
Now that the goal is achieved, from what the latest news say they keep the money, but don't move forward to official support for cards above 32GB.
No, read carefully "Indiegogo Jolla Tablet - world's first crowdsourced tablet" site :
Yes! You spoke and we listened!...Regarding the 1st stretch goal (memory card support up to 128GB), we’ve decided to move forward with an open source memory card solution. This enables you to use memory cards up to 128GB on your Jolla Tablet for back-ups and additional storage, but due to Microsoft’s licensing limitations, cards over 32GB will not be directly compatible with Windows computers. We feel that this suits best to our community's wishes and Jolla's values.

You say that the up to 128GB memory cards are not supported for Windows computers. Why is that?

We've decided to move forward with an open source memory card solution. This enables you to use memory cards up to 128GB on your Jolla Tablet for back-ups and additional storage, but due to Microsoft’s licensing limitations, cards over 32GB will not be directly compatible with Windows computers. We apologize if you were expecting full Microsoft support here, but we feel that this suits best to our community's wishes and Jolla's values.
So Jolla officially support 128GB cards, but not in Micro$oft format (exFAT) due to licensing issues which the Sailfish community asked to remove.

And if you want exFAT support, just install it from the source code :
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=251
Maybe exFat support will be packaged and available in OpenRepos.net.

Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
They'll keep the half-baked solution that was there in the first place, from the very beginning: No official support for cards >32GB, but some trickery that will wipe existing data from the card, most probably make it slower and reduce its lifespan. That's what we had in the very beginning, that's what I have today on my Jolla phone. It's part of Sailfish OS right now, no need to licence or develop anything for it.
Jolla smartphone doesn't officialy support microSD > 32GB.
Sailfish OS in Jolla smartphone doesn't have an easy (GUI in Settings, etc) to format a microSD HC/XC card, as you need to use developer mode, Terminal and CLI commands.
You know that. So stop saying microSD support in Jolla Tablet is the same of Jolla smartphone. Sailfish 2.0 <> 1.1.
__________________
Python, C/C++, Qt and CAS developer. For Maemo/MeeGo/Sailfish :
Integral, Derivative, Limit - calculating mathematical integrals, derivatives and limits. SymPy - Computer Algebra System.
MatPlotLib - 2D & 3D plots in Python. IPython - Python interactive shell.
-- My blog about mobile & scientific computing ---
Sailfish : Sony Xperia X, Gemini, Jolla, Jolla C, Jolla Tablet, Nexus 4. Nokia N9, N900, N810.
 

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rcolistete is offline rcolistete
2015-01-30 , 13:18
Posts: 1,269 | Thanked: 3,961 times | Joined on May 2011 @ Brazil
#309
Originally Posted by Dave999 View Post
I asked Jolla if I could cancel my tablet. I couldn't however could request a refund number when I already got it. Wtf is that? Jolla can't add don't send and return money in may? Noooooo...
It was said since the beginning in Indiegogo terms. You can't cancel a perk. Just read the terms before you decide to buy something.

Jolla is not responsible for your lack of reading capability.

Originally Posted by Dave999 View Post
I want to cancel to show my dislike for Jollas fake 3g stretch goal and then possibly buy it for full price in June or later if Jolla start acting properly again.
The 3G stretch goal was a bet. You should know that a bet can't always win. I have already said and you are ignoring the facts : if the 3G goal was achieved, then you would have the optional perk to choose 3G for Jolla Tablet. You haven't paid anything to have 3G at all for your Jolla Tablet. Nobody is faking 3G.
__________________
Python, C/C++, Qt and CAS developer. For Maemo/MeeGo/Sailfish :
Integral, Derivative, Limit - calculating mathematical integrals, derivatives and limits. SymPy - Computer Algebra System.
MatPlotLib - 2D & 3D plots in Python. IPython - Python interactive shell.
-- My blog about mobile & scientific computing ---
Sailfish : Sony Xperia X, Gemini, Jolla, Jolla C, Jolla Tablet, Nexus 4. Nokia N9, N900, N810.
Last edited by rcolistete; 2015-01-30 at 14:13.
 

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JulmaHerra is offline JulmaHerra
2015-01-30 , 13:21
Posts: 285 | Thanked: 1,900 times | Joined on Feb 2010
#310
Originally Posted by rcolistete View Post
So Jolla officially support 128GB cards, but not in Micro$oft format (exFAT) due to licensing issues which the Sailfish community asked to remove.
Which part of Sailfish community asked to remove. For reasons not related to technical superiority, user friendliness or any comparable reason - only because of inability to cope with idea that OOB-support for SDXC would generate income for Microsoft. Anyone bother to guess what it sounds like in the ears of average user asking why he cannot use a memory card from his camera to preview his/her photos on tablet....
 

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