Palm Pre isn't mainstream by a long shot. It hasn't sold in large enough volumes. But I bet they get OBEX Push really soon, and until they do, many will be turned off, especially since they target business users, which tend to be more educated and expect more out of a device. And from speaking to iPhone users, they want OBEX Push, too. Why shouldn't they?

Now what have I "HYPED" that wasn't there?? I think you've become confused. And in the case of maps and cartography, better isn't based on opinion, but details. Look at the quality and accuracy of the actual maps, and Navteq wins. Its why when the automakers, governments, telemetrics app companies, and lost people use a map, its a Navteq provided one most of the time. It was probably the biggest cartography company in the world when Nokia bought them recently, to the dismay of the competition.

Nokia makes its own maps, while Google buys theirs, which may not even be up to date.

I used to do seismic geophysical studies for an energy company, and have been in various remote locations without cellular signal. Don't assume for a second that its that reliable. Away from the highway system, it isn't.

I don't expect you to see what an open platform brings. You're American! But the move toward FOSS is undeniably being undertaken by Google, Nokia, and many others, so someone's seen the benefits for you.

The NIT's weren't where most of the innovations in navigation and communications, it was Symbian. I think there are plenty devices they've sold in those flavors that outsold the iPhone and Nokia "delivered".

I'm sorry you feel 'attacked', but you made some pretty controversial statements, and I felt the need to engage you in a discussion on them. Don't be upset if I don't agree with you, but be prepared to stand up for your statement. It was you that wanted to rebut everytime I make a point, and it was me that took you to the mat in my typical style. You made few valid points, and I made many. No big deal. But real recognizes real, and you made yourself seem like an apologist.

I didn't make any controversial ****ing statements. This closed in group here feels like it's their turf and want to start a ****ing war about stupid ****.

Apologist my ***. I care very little for this "us vs. them" mentality that's being embraced as of late.

I'll support whatever is worth my time. Which part of that is controversial?

As it stands, none of this is worth my time. You people want something as minor as OBEX. I was pushing for A2DP - screw file sharing in an insecure and slow manner. I got wifi for that. Seriously, it's so low on my totem pole of stuff I want it's a non-factor now.

You people want it, I get it. I'm again not in your corner for it. Bluetooth transfers for files I might want to use USB2 for or wifi for... I don't have an half-hour for a 250mb file.

I have less time for stuff like that. Even less for a bunch of ****ed up, out of touch, singular minded fanboys.

lol, there's a 'n900 v iphone war' tag in this thread.

Yeah, I can see what gerbick's talking about. I never thought I needed to pick 'sides' based on what gadgets I own Sometimes you just want to talk about their technical merit and people here would hose you down for 'praising the competitor'.

@christexaport: didn't you mention that you're an analyst in a different thread somewhere?

Look, gerbick, calm down. What is wrong with you? We're having a discussion about phones, that's all. I respect your opinion even without agreeing with it. Maintain your composure and don't take things so personally.

I found it pretty controversial and similar to typical Apple speak when you brought up a nascent platform and device and said it didn't have OBEX push. I'm pretty sure you know that is a rarety for smart or feature phones. The 2004 Moto RAzr even has it. Mentioning one that doesn't and probably soon will was grabbing at straws, and only made you look desperate to make a point, and you actually looked bad doing it.

When I mentioned Nokia owning Navteq, the company that supplies most mapping apps with its data, you brought up Wayfinder. HUH? When I mentioned navigation apps, you brought up the free Google Maps, which is on all devices. What if you brought up browser speed and I compared the iPhone to Opera mini on the N95? Even though its not installed, its easily installed for free, and every device has it.. but the iphone. It seemed you were just seeking any way you could diss Nokia and rebut me, and that is controversial by definition.



I was simply comparing Ovi Maps, which is built into Nokia devices, and Apple's Google maps, which isnt special since Nokia Nseries can get that too for free.

And there is no "us". I'm here for me, and even though I'm known in Nokia circles, I'm not here to clique up with anyone, just to promote and learn about a new product my readers are interested in. But I do hate the iPhone, and love to show why.

OBEX isn't small. its free file transfer compatible with 85% of all phones out there. Don't act so aloof about it, when people in developing countries lack other data connections, and this is the only way of file sharing. And its not that slow for small objects, and Nokia's target audience is larger than gerbick island. By the way, how do you file tranfer via wifi with a device without it? How do you transfer via USB to a feature phone without USB or with a proprietary plug?

I don't think a 250 MB file is typical for bluetooth, but at least its possible. OBEX is mostly for small files like pictures and install files.

And don't say "you people". I'M saying this to you, no one else. It makes you sound like those snooty people that think they are above all others. Nor am I f...ed up, as you say. I just think this device is for many people, and what we do with them may not be what others across the globe will.

I'm very in touch with the industry, as my job requires, and I'm not singular minded, but I know a single person I don't need to waste much more time speaking to, and am done wasting time listening to. Get a vocabulary, grow up, and just don't respond to my comments anymore, since you have so little time. I'd love you to save it hunting for a USB cable to tie that potty mouth of yours shut.

...kids...

yes, I'm an analyst. But also a Symbian user, and I'll admit I hate iPhans that can't lose an arguemnt. They say things like, "the iPhone is a pocket computer, we don't need OBEX, multitasking isn't important, blah blah blah.", but don't even believe themselves.

I'm also a former debate team member, and can argue my *** off, so be aware, and don't say something silly or I'll call you out for it. That's what christexaport is and will alway be. I don't care for professionalism, but am a professional debater. (And not a Master bater) LOL

You're also trying to rack up as many posts here as possible, it seems.. not sure if there's anything against it, like in many other forums.

Now that you've mentioned the 'debate' angle it makes it that much more clearer to me that you're looking at this more as a debate that you need to personally win. I'm seeing this sort of thing as discussions to broaden the view market understanding. Each merit is acknowledged separately and there's no need to tally up the 'scores' of each camps.

When I say "you people", it's you Linux loving people that only see one option. I support for the US Gov't among other contracts some 7 OS's... I was part of the group that pushed for FOSS in the US Gov't back in 2000/2001.

Now, with that said, my like and use of Linux goes back a decade, easily. Regardless, I don't think that anybody here will disagree on one thing... this group here at this site is very wrong in a lot of things outside of their choice(s) which did not include the iPhone.

All I've done so far was answer those questions where I saw some wrongs. I do feel attacked because of one simple thing - quote everything I say. If you're a debater, then you'd take the time to know my stance. You're guessing and assuming wrongly. I don't particularly like anybody to place words in my mouth and labels upon me. Apologist, Apple fanboy... yeah right. You might as keep guessing because you're wrong and that brings a very personal slant to your verbiage. Can't be objective, don't address me.

Now, with that said... Ovi maps isn't all that. I've used the N97. I'm not impressed at all. Nor am I impressed with the Apple maps either. And I'm definitely not impressed with the N810 maps either which have not been updated since 1Q 2008. It's almost 2010 now.

And I'm supposed to give Nokia faith? Nope. They'll have to prove it.

And for you people that think that I'm all for Apple... search it. I've stated that the 3GS was a money grab. The 3G wasn't that good of a phone. The Apple phones did do something that all of this jaw jacking hasn't done yet... brought competition. And instead of this silly "open source - you wouldn't get it because you're American" blah blah personal stuff, leave that ignorance behind and show me the proof that it is better.

So far, all you have to show me... well, the N810/N800. They both haven't had commercial updates on any of their programs for over an year. Skype, 2007. Gizmo, February 2008. Rhapsody... ok, who knows because I wouldn't use it. Maps... February or so of 2008.

Faith building indeed.

Now, what kills me... this whole positioning of what the N900 will do. It's not out yet. I've also stated that I want Nokia to do well. I don't have the same level of faith as you lot. So want to paint me as some leper, so be it. But to sit back and say "don't take it personal", look at your own verbiage first.

When it comes out, let's see if the concerns of apps, updates, and mainstream appeal will happen. So far, I'm not seeing it happen. And to truly sit here and say that something - yes, it's minor to me because I don't swap small files around, I actually use my phone for larger files, some 2+gb databases sometimes because I can do it - that's something I won't do or transfer via Bluetooth at all.

You want it, so be it. You sound like that other broken record. It's not on the iPhone anyway, so why even argue about it? It's a feature I wouldn't use if it were there anyway. That's my prerogative. The fact that it's on 250+ million prior phones doesn't change my stance.

Time for a new way to transfer bigger files. I won't even transfer a 247mb PDF that I have on my iPhone right now via bluetooth either. But I did it via wifi on my iPhone just a minute ago.

Anyway. I'm a senior programmer analyst, senior security engineer and senior programmer that's on contract with 4 foreign companies and I deal with the US Gov't too. I deal with more human and computer languages and computer networks than I'd rather keep count of and bluetooth... we disallow it onsite at most locations anyway. So even professionally, I won't even use it.

This phone, I hope it does well. This group of people, I hope some of you stop being so close minded at times - quite the welcoming feeling that'll be needed when the neophytes actually come in bigger numbers. I can't wait to see how that goes down.

This release... it'll be replaced by Harmattan soon enough and this phone with it... if it's successful.

This childishness, I'll never speak on it again. I have no time to waste on simple minded people with a chip on their shoulder.

And, that is exactly what Apple is in the business of selling. The people that want an iPhone are the people that just want the thing to work, they want to just plug it into their Mac and have everything just flow back and forth, they just want to go to the store and pay money to get what they want. Options, feature-sets, hardware capabilities... these things are not what sells an iPhone. What sells is "just works," and it doesn't even have to be true. Apple sells "just works," with a little bit of style and status thrown in. Their brand is based on it.

Now, personally, and I suspect the majority of people on this board agree with me on this, I'd rather have something open and configurable. I'd rather have a feature-set I can play with, apps I can experiment with, and that's why I have my N810, why I'll probably buy something like the N900 (eventually), and why I'd never bother with an iPhone. I find the very concept of an iPhone repulsive, but I'm not normal.

I tried using OS-X on my desktop, at the insistence of my Mac-Nazi brother. I gave it a full year. While it made me realise how bad Windows was, I couldn't shake the negative feelings. Sure, it was nice and clean, but it was a jail none-the-less. Every time I tried to do something that Steve wasn't in to, that didn't fit the Mac-ethos, I'd run into a wall. I kept thinking of the old British show "The Prisoner" where the x-spy had this happy little tea-time retirement home with flower gardens. Everything was perfect, until he tried to leave. This is the Apple philosophy... control everything and give the user a nice, perfect experience. But, make leaving painful. It works for a lot of people, but not me. Freedom is worth the effort; I'd rather the pain.

Comparing specs is not going to get anywhere, nor is comparing style and ease-of-use. Each has it's niche, and the iPhone niche is bigger. I highly doubt Nokia will make a big dent in this, even with something as cool and the N900. Apple has been at this for a long time and they're very good at it. The very thing that appeals to people like us; un-vetted, multi-source, free and open application choice; will reduce the "just works" experience that iPhone type people crave, at any cost.

There's no real point in comparing the hardware; you have to compare the people using it.

David...

Well Gerbick, I'm a newbie to Linux, and all I know comes from reading this forum's old posts for a week straight, 8 hours a day, for research, so I hope I can learn something about Linux from you.

Well I'll admit I'm very competitive and persuasive, and love to debate, so forgive me if I came off offensively. But I feel you did the same thing by rebutting everything others said about the situation, and you made some weak points, and I naturally poke holes in weak points, not to ridicule you, just to drive my point home, that's all. I have to remember everyone doesn't enjoy debate as much as me. (One of my favorite movies is "The Great Debaters", and my favorite line is "I have the right to defend myself with violence or civil disobedience. You should hope I choose the latter.") And debaters don't wait to know your stance, we constantly watch your feet and aim at the toes to ensure you can have no leg to stand on. Its sick hearing me say that, but the best speakers, lobbyists, and lawyers come from this sort of training. I have to subdue it from time to time.

Does any mobile navi app impress you? Honestly?

By your rebuttals, it seemed you were justifying the lack of features. I don't need a touchscreen, but for the N97 to lack one would be a mistake for adoption's sake, as is OBEX for many. This is fact from a study on iPhone selling points and those that chose other models. It's probably the third largest thing after multitasking and dedicated keys.

I think you should know I'm not a Maemo user, but a Symbian user. I have used Symbian as my primary computing platform for 3 years straight now, and only use Windows in the studio when recording or backup my mobiles. But software not updated isn't bad if it works. Does it? And keep in mind, the NITs weren't mass market devices like the N900 is intended to be. Maemo 5 has mounds more momentum and support from Nokia this go around, and the phone capabilities puts it in the easy to sell category. Phones>tablets

I base it on what little I do know of Linux, the lot I know of Nokia, and Nokia's desire to make noise in the US this next 4 quarters. I've seen enough video to know I'd be satisfied enough to want it for the browser alone. Don't be a defeatist. I only responded to your "Pre doesn't have OBEX" and "Who needs Bt with wifi?" comments so viciously because in the global view, most people do, especially in India and China, bigger markets than the US with different needs and infrastructure. What Nokia does is make compromises to fit most markets. The iPhone is a niche device, and not even a large part of the market, just the mindshare. To put our personal views as the bell cowl for whether a device is worthy of the global market is not wise.

Well I don't expect the N900 to be the next N95, but if it sells as well as the E71 or N97, it will be the biggest selling mobile Linux variant ever, and give Nokia plenty to build upon. Just because I want it doesn't make me a broken record. You don't need a camera on your phone or fancy wheels on your car, but that doesn't make them "little" or useless for others. Just like the FM radio, which many of us don't need, is necessary to sell devices in Africa, where most people in developing Africa don't have any other access to radio broadcasts outside their Nokia phones. You have to know the global market, not just yours.

I'm curious, what did you transfer the file to, a PC? They're pretty rare in 3rd world countries. Most people consider their smartphone thier PC. And I'd like to see you send a file from your iPhone to a Razr or even an N95 via Wifi. I can send it from my N95 via SymSMB to any wireless network, but not natively.

There's a reason most people choose Maemo, Symbian, and Nokia over an iphone. Why don't you stop trying to convince those people they should? Every forum I go to I hear some idiot trying to tell me about the iPhone when I know what it isn't already. I'm more pleased with allowing homebrewed apps and multiple programming toolkit support. I'm allowed to be as close minded as I want because I've already reviewed the iPhones and know their limitations severely limit my daily workflow, and underserve the emerging markets with lack of necessary features. I bet plenty iPhans switch to the N900.

now childishness?? Wasn't it you cursing like a third grade idiot? you were the simple minded one, gerbick, but its ok. We all get irritated. Just notice the rafter in your own eye before you pick straw from mine. I have no chip on my shoulder. I'm just setting the record straight. I'd love to get you and other iphone lovers to the MobileActive symposium to see how the iphone is seen there. Its not just me saying it, but the most sophisticated mobilist out there.