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2009-06-20
, 03:37
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Posts: 5,478 |
Thanked: 5,222 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ St. Petersburg, FL
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#32
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Originally Posted by lemmyslender
Hardly. Do we require people to shut down their repositories? Or users to only use Extras? No.
One of the recurring themes I keep seeing here is how "open" maemo is. And how quite a few people wish it were more open. Something along the lines of: I'd never get an iphone because it's locked down.... Yet here we are discussing asking people to shut down their repositories and only use the "approved" repository. Even though there are perhaps minimal hoops to jump through, isn't this still a form of locking down the platform? The very thing that so many people are against?
What we're asking is that developers consider the clear benefits to their users (and to them) that moving their packages into Extras will bring. Users get high-quality software from a centralized and stable location and developers get the benefits of the maemo.org infrastructure.
This isn't even vaguely comparable to how Apple locks down the iPhone.
Originally Posted by lemmyslender
You, evidently, haven't spent much time in the trenches troubleshooting for people. Users will and regularly do add all the repositories on gronmayer and they regularly end up in very bad situations because of it. Trust me. I've helped people out of these bad spots dozens and dozens of times. Perhaps when you've spent as much time as some of us have helping users out of bad spots then you'd see exactly how silly and ignorant iPhone-lockdown comparisons are in this situation.
Yes, there are some very valid arguments for this, but I,think it's unreeasonable to think that a user would blindly install all 60 or whatever repositories. Most likely, a new user will be timid about exploring outside the default repositories unless they really need to. Likely it will be one at a time after that as they see things they want to try.
Originally Posted by lemmyslender
********. This is what happens when every developers opens up their own repository: users have a bad experience and blame the platform, you end up with fewer users which means fewer developers which means fewer programs.
By making it harder to install things off the beaten path, less users will be willing to test them. In the end, fewer programs.
What do you get with Extras? High-quality stable software that's accessible right from the first boot on a new-out-of-box device for end users, unstable beta-quality software for adventurous users willing to test software, and alpha-quality software for power users and developers. Everybody is given the information to pick the software that suites their needs, developers get access to a much larger audience and users get good software. In the end, everybody wins.
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Ryan Abel
Ryan Abel
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2009-06-20
, 08:35
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Posts: 152 |
Thanked: 620 times |
Joined on Mar 2008
@ Netherlands
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#33
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Originally Posted by attila77
And now you are getting to the real problem. Some developers publish a repo 'to scratch their own itch' and share with other people. So far so good.
A personal example, there is aumix. I just can't understand how N810 users can live without it, and yet, it's only in the elkins.org repo and causing mayhem with packaging as it's in a chinook repoThe original packager probably lost interest and left it for dead. If it was extras, it would be easy for someone to pick it up, but this way it's a
But then they lose interest, but the repository remains. New people add that repository every day to their device. If a package in that repository suddenly conflicts with a package in another repository or breaks the device, this repository suddenly becomes 'toxic'.
Leaving these unmanaged repositories behind can cause a lot of trouble for end-users, who don't know that adding the repository can be harmful.
What is worse from my point of view: you can't even step in and remove the package, fix it or even warn people about the hazard.
I have personally mailed about 70 repository holders, only got responses from half. This would probably mean that the other half lost interest, but still left their repository up.
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2009-06-20
, 08:55
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Posts: 4,783 |
Thanked: 1,253 times |
Joined on Aug 2007
@ norway
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#34
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Originally Posted by Ed_
with the end result that people will shift to pasting instruction on how to edit the files directly...
Or to not allow to add repositories in application manager
i suspect that the biggest problem is that some on this forum (probably the more casual users) still point towards gronmayer when someone asks where they can find something...
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2009-06-20
, 09:26
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Posts: 93 |
Thanked: 73 times |
Joined on Sep 2006
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#35
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Originally Posted by tso
It was a joke.
with the end result that people will shift to pasting instruction on how to edit the files directly...
However, if community manage to get most of user/ packages to extras users won't be interested in editing files directly.
i suspect that the biggest problem is that some on this forum (probably the more casual users) still point towards gronmayer when someone asks where they can find something...
That's why for me amount of online repositories on gronmayer is the best metrics of success of this task:http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Reducing_...l_repositories
As you can see we suck badly on accomplishing it
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2009-06-20
, 10:50
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Posts: 3,319 |
Thanked: 5,610 times |
Joined on Aug 2008
@ Finland
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#36
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Originally Posted by lemmyslender
Openness != anarchy. The other key difference is that it's not 'approved' but rather 'highly recommended' (unless you think that writing an application mail to Niels is a big deal
One of the recurring themes I keep seeing here is how "open" maemo is. And how quite a few people wish it were more open. Something along the lines of: I'd never get an iphone because it's locked down.... Yet here we are discussing asking people to shut down their repositories and only use the "approved" repository.
). You'd be right if there was no legal and/or technical way of using 3rd party repositories at all, which is not the case.
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2009-06-20
, 13:12
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Posts: 968 |
Thanked: 974 times |
Joined on Nov 2008
@ Ohio
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#37
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I don't think we're quite at anarchy levels yet
Fewer repositories would be better. But, I would think that having some outside repositories would be a good thing. For instance, I think with a little digging, I can find a sizeable package to install cups printing support. Put that in extras (or even extras-development) and I bet there'd be dozens and dozens of requests for "help printing" or "I installed the printing package, why can't I print anything" or "how do I get xxx printer setup to work", etc, etc.
Most users will at least understand that if something is in an outside repository, there is less likely going to be good support and/or problems.
Of course there will always be people that will click on anything that says install, even if it says installing this will render your device useless. I suspect that if it were easier to install multiple items at one time, there'd be dozens of people complaining that "I installed everything down to g... and it crashed, what happened?"
Fewer repositories would be better. But, I would think that having some outside repositories would be a good thing. For instance, I think with a little digging, I can find a sizeable package to install cups printing support. Put that in extras (or even extras-development) and I bet there'd be dozens and dozens of requests for "help printing" or "I installed the printing package, why can't I print anything" or "how do I get xxx printer setup to work", etc, etc.
Most users will at least understand that if something is in an outside repository, there is less likely going to be good support and/or problems.
Of course there will always be people that will click on anything that says install, even if it says installing this will render your device useless. I suspect that if it were easier to install multiple items at one time, there'd be dozens of people complaining that "I installed everything down to g... and it crashed, what happened?"
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*Consumer*, not a developer! I apologize for any inconvenience.
My script to backup /home and /opt
Samsung Galaxy S Vibrant, Huawei S7, N900(retired), N800(retired)
*Consumer*, not a developer! I apologize for any inconvenience.
My script to backup /home and /opt
Samsung Galaxy S Vibrant, Huawei S7, N900(retired), N800(retired)
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2009-06-20
, 13:28
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Posts: 5,478 |
Thanked: 5,222 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ St. Petersburg, FL
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#38
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Originally Posted by lemmyslender
Again, I call ********. Most users don't have the slightest clue what a repository is and will likely never even enable Extras on their devices. Problem is, the ones who will go seek out additional software are largely coming from Windows where downloading random software from the internet is how it's done, and this mindset will get them in trouble.
Most users will at least understand that if something is in an outside repository, there is less likely going to be good support and/or problems.
Nobody's arguing that there should only be one repository (some things clearly don't belong in Extras-- although I don't buy your CUPS example for an instant since that's a package that shouldn't be in user/ anyway), but having the majority of the software for the platform available from a stable, centralized location clearly benefits both users and developers, so let's keep the silly and non-sensical iPhone comparisons out of it.
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Ryan Abel
Ryan Abel
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2009-06-20
, 13:54
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Posts: 4,274 |
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Joined on Sep 2007
@ Looking at y'all and sighing
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#39
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Originally Posted by qgil
No, because:
A pragmatic way to approach all this is to apply the peer pressure on any Fremantle app popping up in a private repository, leaving the activity on the 4.1 repos on a lower priority.
- The numerous private repositories, currently, exist for Diablo and not Fremantle.
- People still use their devices with Diablo running on them. I don't see why they should lose out on the benefits that would be gained from this push.
Originally Posted by lemmyslender
It's already been in extras-devel for a long time now and I haven't seen any complaints arising concerning that cups package in extras-devel. Beats me anyway as to why people wish to print from a tablet, anyway. The GTK+ printing dialog doesn't even fit the tablet screen properly anyway...
I think with a little digging, I can find a sizeable package to install cups printing support. Put that in extras (or even extras-development) and I bet there'd be dozens and dozens of requests for "help printing" or "I installed the printing package, why can't I print anything" or "how do I get xxx printer setup to work", etc, etc.
And, actually, beside that, cups is in extras-devel - a testing repo. Who says that it's going to work for sure anyway?
Last edited by qwerty12; 2009-06-20 at 14:12.
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2009-06-20
, 14:32
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Posts: 93 |
Thanked: 73 times |
Joined on Sep 2006
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#40
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Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles
Sorry for the offtopic, but I have to say that .install files from my point of view continue Windows approach. I don't know how Maemo downloads can be orgainized, but those green arrows 'click and install' just breaking concept of repositories and make wrong understanding among users.
Problem is, the ones who will go seek out additional software are largely coming from Windows where downloading random software from the internet is how it's done, and this mindset will get them in trouble.
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Yes, there are some very valid arguments for this, but I,think it's unreeasonable to think that a user would blindly install all 60 or whatever repositories. Most likely, a new user will be timid about exploring outside the default repositories unless they really need to. Likely it will be one at a time after that as they see things they want to try.
By making it harder to install things off the beaten path, less users will be willing to test them. In the end, fewer programs.
*Consumer*, not a developer! I apologize for any inconvenience.
My script to backup /home and /opt
Samsung Galaxy S Vibrant, Huawei S7, N900(retired), N800(retired)