Nah.. just was clarifying my opinion of what is "work". You said IF it's labor of any sort then you'd disagree.. and I was agreeing with you. Building a shed is quite a lot of work.. but I wouldn't consider it so if it was something I wanted to do. Same with the network analogy.

But doing something for somebody else in which the only benefit you get is the "happy" feel-good sensation of being a kindly neighbor.. and/or money... that's work.

The last paragraph was more to sungrove.. He made the comment some people actually love their jobs that also happen to provide their lifestyle. They do what they love as he says. And I agree that there are SOME.. I just don't know any.

But like me.. I love computers - I work with computers - that doesn't mean I love my work. I absolutely despise life at 06:30 every morning that I have to wake up and trot off to this god-forsaken vortex of hell... (I work for the gubberment ).

Loving the object with which you do your job.. doesn't necessarily equate to loving your job.

I guess really what I'm getting at is this: If I inherited 600 million dollars today and made a 1 million dollar salary every year for nothing.... there is quite a bit about my life I'd change. Someone that can honestly say that they would be doing exactly the same thing they are doing right now; even with all the money in the world; well... IF you're being honest... I salute you.

Well, you sort of know ME, and I enjoyed my work with Nokia immensely (I actually looked forward to going in to my job at the local factory before it closed) and at times it was more fun than play. One reason why I am very, very unhappy at being let go...

So.. if some uncle you never heard about suddenly died and left you everything.. and you instantaneously became a billionaire overnight of an established company where you get constant royalties and income from now until forever...

given the choice - you would have continued to work for Nokia anyway and just used the money you got as play money?

Does suck about the lay-off though dude... it would be doubly worse getting fired from a job you actually enjoy.. as opposed to one you did because you had too. Also is a negative to Nokia as well though.. since firing employees that actually like their job is never in a companies best interest..

If I came into that sort of money I'd become a full-time writer.

But that's one hypothetical I can count on being unrealistic.

Well ok then... you may have enjoyed your job.. but you did it because you needed the money .

Money is the driving factor that propels almost everyone in a business. I think the one exception I've heard of is Pat Tillman.. who left a career of fame and fortune to become a military special forces soldier.

Granted, he died, but still - I admire the man for doing what he wanted to do.. not what he had to do to survive in the current money-driven world.

fatal-

you had said something like- 'why work if the government is just going to give you money-' I said, paraphrasing myself something like- 'well because you can get more out of work than money.' I guess we could make a list, but isn't it pretty obvious even the most boring job will end up giving you something - at least something to go home and complain about, right? Many people seem to have a major part of their social life as a result of it for one thing.

But really what I was getting at is that, to risk getting a bit esoteric here,

( btw- I just found a bit here- http://www.kheper.net/topics/esoteric.html
on the subject of esoteric as opposed to exoteric. )

work is about your dream(s) and can be about your highest self. But I think, because of the various complexities of life ,the need to pay the bills and the endless emphasis in this world that you are your job and your job is your status, we easily lose track of our dream even if we are lucky enough to find it in ourselves.

For example, I took on the ridiculous dream that I wanted to be a musician. But as with most musicians, I wasn't good enough to be able to earn money doing it. But still it is my dream. I love to do it and the few times I have been paid to do it have just been a fantastic experience. I mean also that money needn't change hands in order for this sort of 'dream work' to happen and be real. It was just a great combination of doing what I wanted and getting paid ( or not) to do it.

It is this sort of experience that I think all our lives are capable of being like at least part of the time. And this is part of what makes me continue to hope for a safe country and a cleaner environment. What good is my dream of playing the piano if when I step out the door I am faced with gang members who want to sell me drugs or I have to breath dirty air from auto emmissions, or I hear that the oceans are dying as a result of global warming?

Neil

That actually goes to further my argument sungrove...

Most everyone would wish to be doing something else... but we do what we do because it's what pays us the most, or what offered us the job.. and we have bills to pay.

Since the government is just going to be handing out cash on the street corners.. paying for my food for me.. paying for my medical for me.. paying for everything I need to survive...

I don't need to do the job that needs to get done anymore - because I don't want to. I'll go do what I want to do.. whether I'm good at it or not.. because money won't be a factor anymore.

Like you, for example. You can go be a musician now. Whatever job it is your doing now.. all of sudden won't be getting done.. but you don't need to worry or care about that - the government has your back.

How many people actually enjoy farming or being farmers?? How many do it because it's what they know and what they can do?? Well.. government will subsidize them. They can opt to either not do anything anymore, or do less work and make the same money..

What do you think the economic impact would be if all the farmers decided not to work anymore? Or the IT guys that are tired of telling people to "reboot" and then proceed on having to explain that to reboot, you click the start button...

How many janitors actually like their jobs?? And they are usually on the lower end of the pay scale... they truly COULD quit and likely make as much money from all the government programs as they are at their current jobs.

Obviously people on my end I'm a being a bit exaggerated.. even with all the government handouts planned in a truly socialist society it's unlikely I'd break even by quitting my job... but all of the jobs that nobody really wants to do?? Those are typically necessary, but dirty, jobs that all of a sudden the one factor that gets people to do them, money, is no longer a factor.

The cities will be dirty.. the trash will no longer get picked up.. the sewers will not be maintained.. people with septic tanks will be unable to call anyone to come fix it.. floors won't get swepped or mopped.. you (generalized, not you specifically) won't be able to dial 1-800-DELL and get someone willing to put up with ignorance to get help with your PC...

Instead... we'll have an abundance of.. Writers and Musicians; for example.

And I hate to say it.. but the only way you'll get rid of the whole "gang members that want to sell me drugs" ... is to legalize drugs. That will make the black-market value for drugs plummet. Quite evidently, making it illegal isn't doing a damned thing - it's still everywhere.. I was able to buy Mary J in Middle school.. I'm positive it's into our elementary schools by now. There really isn't ANYTHING the government can do about that.. except to finally STOP trying to control it.

(not specific to the post above)

Welfare is a form of modern slavery, disguised as assistance. It entraps desperate people and once they're caught in its web it is very, very difficult to get out. Many assume otherwise but I daresay they've never been in the welfare hellhole to know. They should look up Whoopi Goldberg's recount of her experience to get some perspective... it sure helped me understand.

I also bet MOST people not working do WANT to work; they just encounter near-insurmountable walls of resistance. People who cast stones at the subject from a comfortable distance trivialize what can be a painful experience. There are always factors in any given situation that only those close to it can understand. It's easy to lob trite, pithy and derogatory comments at a situation rather than put effort into understanding it... lot of irony there.

Until someone has, like I did few years ago, gone 9 straight months without full employment and eventually dependent on the grace of family then IMO they are ill-equipped to pass judgment on those in dire straits. Just as I was before I experienced that hell first-hand.

I remember after 4 months when things got bad (just before Christmas 2002) I was seeking assistance. I had donated to gas and electrical emergency funds for years and now it was my turn to benefit-- right? Nope! Gas company said I had made too much money while employed to qualify (county said the same thing about house payment, food etc) and electrical was a co-op that said they refused to participate in community outreach (more irony). So we almost lost everything and just scraped by. If I had made a lower wage, I could have been entitled to all sorts of programs (benefitted by the high taxes of that former high wage) BUT I would have been sucked into welfare hell so in the end we were better off for not qualifying... but when I say we just skirted complete disaster I am not exaggerating. We are still dealing with collectors of unpaid accounts (more irony: we had cut up our credit cards and embarked on a payoff plan months before I was laid off).

And now I'm facing it again (possibly even worse) and though I'm trying to be positive and unemotional I will say I damn sure am not very tolerant of the dismissive attitude of those who have never known true struggle.

/rant

Well.. I can't speak for anyone else, obviously.. but my life story is as follows:

I was married at 17 with a baby on the way.. I worked in McDonalds and the wife worked as a telemarketer type. For the first couple of months we lived with the parents, and then moved into an apartment. It got particularly bad towards the 6th month because my wife quit her job.. we got on WIC. (Woman, infant, Children) and received coupons to get Milk, Eggs, formula, etc.

We were unable to pay the last 2 months rent in our apartment so I had to beg my parents for the cash. I also lost my McDonalds job due to a big political problem..

I joined the military shortly there-after.. we went 2-3 months without income. I sold two motorcycles my parents had gotten me growing up and gave my wife the cash to survive.. because for the first month and half in the military you don't receive a paycheck. Then we got a pitiful paycheck that was supposed to "back date" what we were supposed to have gotten the past month, except that they took out the "uniform" costs.

After Bootcamp I went to A-School where the navy wouldn't move my family.. so for a little over 8 months my wife and child stayed in my parents basement and the bulk of that we were on the WIC program. It wasn't until AFTER a-school, and me getting top of my class, that I got an immediate promotion to E-2 (which was still pitiful paywise, but at least we had housing at my new location), and after 4 months of evaluation - thanks to the accelerated program for getting top in the class - I got a promotion to E-4. And within a year to E-5.

My navy career flew. Then I got out... and unfortunately we never saved anything. Just before I got out of the navy we applied for a credit card with an insane credit limit because we knew we were going to need it. So for 6 months we lived on a credit card out of her parents basement (my parents no longer had a house) until I got the job I'm currently in.

So I'm not exactly pointing fingers at things I don't understand. That credit card is still nearly full and we're trying to pay it off.. we live to paycheck to paycheck as it is and if I were to lose my job tomorrow we'd be screwed.

fatalsaint, did you see the first line in my post? I'm thinking maybe not...