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2008-11-28
, 08:29
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Posts: 322 |
Thanked: 28 times |
Joined on Feb 2007
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#312
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Originally Posted by Texrat
I really think in part they have succeeded in deluding the public by simply increasing the national debt instead of raising taxes and/or cutting expenses. If we, for example had started raising taxes when we realized we were going to be incurring these huge debts in Iraq or while bailing out corporations lately, how long do you think taxpayers would stay deluded?
Each side lambasts the other over their preferred modes, but in the end, the result is the same: the hapless taxpayer forks over his hard-earned money and then has little realistic say over where it goes and how it's used.
(snip)
But on that subject: history shows that the right preaches lower taxes but votes for higher ones. Yet they have successfully deluded citizens into buying the rhetoric over the reality. A skill I don't admire.
And fatalsaint, I really need to look up the numbers, but I just feel things like paying to help the homeless just has to be way less than the several trillion we are currently spending on the military and bailing out corporations. But I guess if we let the banks go under we'll then just have former CEOs on the corner asking for change?
But I get how you feel. I don't want any sympathy here, really, it was a good experience in a lot of ways, but I was homeless a long time ago. I did pull myself up mostly. But it was also very helpful at a few key points to have a little bit of help. I only received $75 in food stamps , but that was enough. And I was able to start the small business I have now from the streets.
On the other hand, I have tried to directly help a few homeless guys or suggest how they can help themselves out. True, it seems like they don't want to change. But who knows where they are at. Maybe they are just in it for a quick beer or maybe they do need a hand up.
I would suggest it can be OK for the government to be doing some of that because that is one of the resources the homeless or others in need know how to locate pretty easily. It was a hassle, but I was able to find the government office that had food stamps back then. And given a hand up like that, then there's one less homeless guy on the corner to make us feel bad, right?
Or that other guy that got in that desperate situation and decided to take whatever he wanted by force. Instead, he was helped out and he became a positive force. As far as being forced to pay for such things, in principle I understand that. But maybe think of it this way, maybe, God forbid, it will be you or someone you know in that kind of need. And there will be that safety net there for you as well. Isn't that worth paying for? Just another kind of insurance.
But isn't it more than a safety net we need? Don't we just need to start supporting a lot of things more to support the general social fabric of our country? I kind of think that's part of Obama's appeal and hopefully he will end up as a great President, indeed.
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2008-11-28
, 17:10
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Posts: 3,397 |
Thanked: 1,212 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
@ Netherlands
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#313
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The IRS was started to pay for war expenses. Follow the money in Iraq and you see the bigger picture of the cash flow. Besides, their Code is so complex even people who work at the IRS don't understand it...
OTOH, the sales tax is lower in the USA than in EU.
OTOH, the sales tax is lower in the USA than in EU.
__________________
Goosfraba! All text written by allnameswereout is public domain unless stated otherwise. Thank you for sharing your output!
Goosfraba! All text written by allnameswereout is public domain unless stated otherwise. Thank you for sharing your output!
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2008-11-28
, 18:52
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Posts: 3,428 |
Thanked: 2,856 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
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#314
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Originally Posted by sungrove
Well to address the first points.. I am a supporter of the Military primarily because it benefits every person within our borders. Not just a handful. Having an established military to protect our lands from invasion and force and direct influence from the outside keeps all of us with the freedoms we excercise on a daily basis.
And fatalsaint, I really need to look up the numbers, but I just feel things like paying to help the homeless just has to be way less than the several trillion we are currently spending on the military and bailing out corporations. But I guess if we let the banks go under we'll then just have former CEOs on the corner asking for change?
I don't want any sympathy here, really, it was a good experience in a lot of ways, but I was homeless a long time ago. I did pull myself up mostly. But it was also very helpful at a few key points to have a little bit of help. I only received $75 in food stamps , but that was enough. And I was able to start the small business I have now from the streets.
...
As far as being forced to pay for such things, in principle I understand that. But maybe think of it this way, maybe, God forbid, it will be you or someone you know in that kind of need. And there will be that safety net there for you as well. Isn't that worth paying for? Just another kind of insurance.
Now, Whether the government USES that military in purposes that it SHOULD be used.. that's a different story. And we could argue that all day. But I support the formation and operation of a military in general because it benefits everybody (in the US).
OTOH - I complete abhor the bailout to companies and corporations. The government needs to back off and let us succeed or fail on our own.. that bailout was a joke and is causing nothing but more problems. Hell, I heard even the CEO's of the car companies are threatening bankruptcy if they don't get a piece of the government cheese now. What a mess.
And that's a prime example of what happens when people get something for nothing... they just want more. Give a mouse a cookie and all that. I mean heck.. since the government is just going to throw money at us to keep us from failing or going homeless - Why should any of us work?? There's no point.. the government won't let me starve to death.. it'll cut me a monthly subsidiary check .. I can stay at home and play World of Warcraft all day and teach my youngen's school is unnecessary because they'll never need a job.
As to the last point.. I hate the idea of forced insurance as well. I don't think it should be illegal or a requirement to have medical insurance OR car insurance. If I so choose to drive on the road without insurance and demolish your car... you have the right to come after me for payment. If I can't pay.. you sue me for everything I have, and everything I make for the next 5 years. So since I already despise the CURRENT system (both in taxes, like Texrat, and the insurance requirements, etc.) Just saying it's just "Another" tax, or "another" insurance, or that the "right" does it too..
Well.. that doesn't help with me
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2008-11-28
, 19:43
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#315
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My disillusion with the military, for example, was specific to using it as a big "jobs program".
And so we're clear on perspective, I benefitted directly from the military-industrial complex for 7 years while working on very advanced avionics programs. But while I did appreciate having the job, I was simultaneously disgusted by the easy and accepted culture of fraud in the industry. And it's only gotten worse. We're now willing to buy into massive no-bid nation-building contracts rather than hold our leaders accountable for allowing such lunacy to start and persist in the first place.
The citizenry did not listen to Eisenhower, and our descendants will pay for that social deafness.
And so we're clear on perspective, I benefitted directly from the military-industrial complex for 7 years while working on very advanced avionics programs. But while I did appreciate having the job, I was simultaneously disgusted by the easy and accepted culture of fraud in the industry. And it's only gotten worse. We're now willing to buy into massive no-bid nation-building contracts rather than hold our leaders accountable for allowing such lunacy to start and persist in the first place.
The citizenry did not listen to Eisenhower, and our descendants will pay for that social deafness.
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2008-12-03
, 03:17
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Posts: 322 |
Thanked: 28 times |
Joined on Feb 2007
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#316
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Originally Posted by fatalsaint
A couple points, A wealthy fellow has got to love the military a whole lot more than a poor fellow since invasion from the outside will change his life so much more than the equivalent event effects a poor shlub living in a getto. The poor man sees and hears battle dayly. The wealthy man doesn't. Looked at another way, take a rich man and put him in the jungle. What good is his cash? He's as vulnerable as the guy living in the shack nearby. There are no services for him to buy and no security. If he intends to stay, my guess is that one of his first moves would be to go hire a few thugs to protect him. The poorer fellow doesn't have that kind of cash, so he has to make less expensive alliances. Ya, we all benefit from this military, but like many things going on here, it's more a matter of cost-benefit analysis, isn't it? I know, this is a bit absurd, but what would the cost be of just defending ourselves from Canada and Mexico? Why is the military spread out throughout the world? Isn't it because we are paying to support the Coorporate interests? Aren't we putting that in front of paying for security in our own neighborhoods?
Well to address the first points.. I am a supporter of the Military primarily because it benefits every person within our borders. Not just a handful. Having an established military to protect our lands from invasion and force and direct influence from the outside keeps all of us with the freedoms we excercise on a daily basis.
Hell, I heard even the CEO's of the car companies are threatening bankruptcy if they don't get a piece of the government cheese now. What a mess.
And that's a prime example of what happens when people get something for nothing... they just want more. Give a mouse a cookie and all that. I mean heck.. since the government is just going to throw money at us to keep us from failing or going homeless - Why should any of us work??
As to the last point.. I hate the idea of forced insurance as well. I don't think it should be illegal or a requirement to have medical insurance OR car insurance. If I so choose to drive on the road without insurance and demolish your car... you have the right to come after me for payment. If I can't pay.. you sue me for everything I have, and everything I make for the next 5 years. So since I already despise the CURRENT system (both in taxes, like Texrat, and the insurance requirements, etc.) Just saying it's just "Another" tax, or "another" insurance, or that the "right" does it too..
Ok, I'll sue you. Are you going to have the half mil or more to put my life back together after you Tbone my car and injure me and my wife? I don't like being forced to do things either. Unfortunately I don't see too many of us paying taxes if it was voluntary and many would skip paying for insurance if it wasn't manditory. I don't care if you incure losses. I do care if you cause me harm and then can not afford to pay for my losses.
And ya Texrat, it seems we hear all about how the poor are abusing the system and not enough about the Kellogg Brown and Roots of the world.
Neil
Last edited by sungrove; 2008-12-03 at 05:36.
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2008-12-08
, 20:02
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Posts: 3,428 |
Thanked: 2,856 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
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#317
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Originally Posted by sungrove
I think you will find the vast MAJORITY of this country work because they have to. Not because they want to. I am a great techie/geek dude.. and I am in a techie/geek job. But I don't enjoy going every day to fixing some OTHER dude's idea of a network.. or enforcing some OTHER dude's idea of security. I have my own network and security at home that I would be tinkering and toying with all day if I had all the money in the world.
Well, doesn't this assume that all you get out of working is money?
OR.. I really would like to be a police officer. Make it to either Detective or SWAT... or maybe go FBI Field Agent, US Marshall, etc.. I think we all know I like guns by now.. and I do enjoy saving people... Unfortunately... if I quit my current job, paid the $2k it takes to go through Police Academy, and then joined a police force near my home.. This number is not an exaggeration - I would take a 2/3rds pay CUT. My family can't live on that - we've gotten ourselves adjusted to my current wages. So yes.. I work for money. But come next year I won't have to worry about it... I'll just quit, file bankruptcy.. and petition Obama to save me.
Ok, I'll sue you. Are you going to have the half mil or more to put my life back together after you Tbone my car and injure me and my wife? I don't like being forced to do things either.
I should be held accountable. Insurance is just a way to avoid accountability.. the insurance company pays it and my monthly premium just goes up.. woopidy doo. You're stuck paralyzed in a gurney.. I pay an extra $15 a month. Yeah for equality!!! er.. wait...
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2008-12-08
, 22:22
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#318
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I don't know about that fatal... but I guess it depends on how you define "work". If you mean in the corporate rat maze, I agree... but if you just mean labor of any sort then I don't. When people cease being productive in some fashion, they become depressed.
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2008-12-08
, 22:53
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Posts: 3,428 |
Thanked: 2,856 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
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#319
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I don't classify "work" as anything labor intensive. Building my own shed, for my own yard, for example. I'd consider that fun.
Building a computer network in my basement. Also fun.
Building YOUR computer network for YOUR basement. Work.
I agree that there are some people that actually *enjoy* their jobs, and are happy to wake up at 0 dark thirty every morning and trot off to make some other dude millions of dollars every day doing the same routine over and over again. And that's fine.
I don't know any.
Building a computer network in my basement. Also fun.
Building YOUR computer network for YOUR basement. Work.
I agree that there are some people that actually *enjoy* their jobs, and are happy to wake up at 0 dark thirty every morning and trot off to make some other dude millions of dollars every day doing the same routine over and over again. And that's fine.
I don't know any.
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2008-12-09
, 00:05
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#320
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I think we're disconnecting again...
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Which is why this left-vs-right debate is just so much bs. Both believe in redistribution of wealth, just using different modes and to different recipients. Your example of the military is dead on. That's one distribution mode of the right. The left prefers public works (which are desperately needed now). Each side lambasts the other over their preferred modes, but in the end, the result is the same: the hapless taxpayer forks over his hard-earned money and then has little realistic say over where it goes and how it's used.
It's a rant for another day, but I believe income tax is the most anticapitalist thing our government can force on us. It introduces a disincentive to make higher wages-- which is why Congress has to constantly tinker with it (read: corrupt). I believe the only fair tax system is one based on pay-as-you go (with obvious exceptions for necessities) which works very well for us in Texas, but there's too much power and influence tied up in our present national system for it to change.
But on that subject: history shows that the right preaches lower taxes but votes for higher ones. Yet they have successfully deluded citizens into buying the rhetoric over the reality. A skill I don't admire.
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net