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atlochowski	2015-12-10 , 18:03
Posts: 207 \| Thanked: 759 times \| Joined on Dec 2014 @ Poland	#2671

Originally Posted by Fellfrosch

On the other hand than i absoutely don't understand why the main investors exactly now draw back, when the first partnership with intex is announced and a second device is ready developed and just waiting for production and delivery.

This is good question. And I hope we will get answer on irc #mer-meeting Thurs Dec-17 @ 14:30 UTC.

IlkkaP	2015-12-10 , 18:14
Posts: 48 \| Thanked: 128 times \| Joined on Dec 2009	#2672

I looked at the Finnish debt restructuring legislation.

A debt restructuring filing can be rejected by the court for any of the following reasons:
- the company is insolvent and it is probable that solvency cannot be returned by a debt restructuring or solvency can be returned only temporarily
- the company has not enough funds to cover the cost of the debt restructuring and no-one else commits to cover the costs
- it is probable that the company is not able to pay back new debt gained after the restructuring has started

If the court grants debt restructuring, an administrator will be appointed and he has 4 months to draft a debt restructuring program proposal. The proposal will be presented to the creditors to be accepted or rejected. If more than half of the creditors accept the proposal, it can be implemented (the actual rules are more complex).

It is very possible that Jolla does not meet the conditions for a debt restructuring, in which case Jolla would go bankrupt.

The relevant legislation is here
http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/1993/19930047

switch-hitter	2015-12-10 , 18:18
Posts: 207 \| Thanked: 552 times \| Joined on Jul 2011	#2673

Originally Posted by Copernicus

Hmm. I think maybe you're right; GTK+ has so many more because it is plain C, and therefore, you really really don't want to use it raw.

To me choosing which is nicer between C and C++ is like trying to decide whether I'd prefer a poke in the eye or a kick in the nuts. As I said right at the start I'd like to be able to use Genie. I'm not trying to start a flame war about what language is best, I just wanted to know if one my personal favourites is usable on Mer.

I would still prefer system developers to use plain C to create their libraries though.

	pichlo	2015-12-10 , 18:23
	Posts: 6,445 \| Thanked: 20,981 times \| Joined on Sep 2012 @ UK	#2674

Originally Posted by Fellfrosch

On the other hand than i absoutely don't understand why the main investors exactly now draw back

Here is where I think many people make a mistake. By assuming that the investor drew back now. When all the signs for the past six months indicate that the investor drew back perhaps as far back as in May, and was definitely gone by August.

That's why there were problems with the tablet production and the display was just an excuse (perhaps with some truth behind it so not a complete lie but the main issue was money, not the display quality). That's why there were so many unresolved support cases. That's why Jolla went sudddenly so quiet, both on the tablet front and on TJC. (ZogG also keeps trying to hint in that direction but everybody seems to be stuck in the "surprise out of funds in November" loop.)

It was no surprise. They saw it coming but had to keep a straight face till the last moment whilst desperately trying to secure the funding and hope that they could cajole the investor back.

Ask not what happened in November that made the investor lose patience.
Ask what happened in May, June, July or August.

__________________
Русский военный корабль, иди нахуй!

	Copernicus	2015-12-10 , 18:25
	Posts: 1,986 \| Thanked: 7,698 times \| Joined on Dec 2010 @ Dayton, Ohio	#2675

Originally Posted by switch-hitter

I just wanted to know if one my personal favourites is usable on Mer.

I don't see why it wouldn't be.

On the other hand, what do you want to use it for? There aren't very many GObjects in Mer so far as I can see, and I'm not seeing a Genie binding for Qt objects (of which there are a substantial amount, at least in Nemo and Sailfish if not in Mer itself).

	Copernicus	2015-12-10 , 18:42
	Posts: 1,986 \| Thanked: 7,698 times \| Joined on Dec 2010 @ Dayton, Ohio	#2676

Originally Posted by pichlo

When all the signs for the past six months indicate that the investor drew back perhaps as far back as in May, and was definitely gone by August.

^This.

Yes, I have to admit that I too was concentrating mainly on the display issues with the tablet (which I think were quite real), and not on potential monetary issues. But yeah, I think when they started appealing to "Murphy's Law" in terms of supply issues, I should have realized that that meant money issues, because there's always one way that companies can reliably beat Murphy's Law: they simply throw more money at the problem.

And yeah, looked at from a high level, the Tablet project itself might be indicative that Jolla's strategy was not panning out the way that they wanted. It certainly looks like they made no provision for the Jolla Phone to be an ongoing project (no spare batteries, few other halves, no Phone II in the pipeline), so I would guess that they would have hoped to have licensees by the end of 2014, and didn't want to be competing against them. With no licensees (and probably no significant profits from the Phone, and no hope of coming up with a Phone II in time to gain any), they tried to grab an off-the-shelf tablet and front-load some revenue using crowdfunding. This was a fascinating choice, and I think it might have worked, if they had just gone with the off-the-shelf design and gotten it into people's hands asap. By taking so long to get moving, they lost whatever momentum they had built up...

So yeah, I've gotta say I now have to agree with Pichlo's insight here. And, I'll even push the timeline back to the end of 2014. The Tablet project, the reworking of Sailfish into the "less radical" 2.0 version, and the seeming disinterest (and moving away) of key Jolla management figures over the last year all seem to point to direct investor meddling around the end of last year, I think...

prometheus	2015-12-10 , 18:48
Guest \| Posts: n/a \| Thanked: 0 times \| Joined on	#2677

Originally Posted by pichlo

Like other things mentioned with regards to Jolla, just repeating it ad nauseum does not make it true.

"Scam" implies an intention. There is no evidence of the intention of not delivering the tablets. In this regard the Jolla's campaign is very different from the Ubuntu Edge one.

There is evidence that Jolla witheld information from the backers about their financial troubles that prevented them to ship the tablets but this is:
a) common (which is not to say that it is right);
b) prudent (exposing financial troubles too early would scare off customers)
c) depending on local legislature, may even be the only legal way of doing things. For example, in the UK it is illegal for a company to announce "we are going to announce redundancies". The only legally permitted way is to say, "we are announcing redundancies".

This is not true. They proved several times. They've broke several time frames every time stating that tablets are almost ready to be shipped. (I extracted their blog posts where they publicly claimed that everything is OK). At the end they've confessed that it is not true. They also spent all the money for the software development, trying to convince us that all those money were invested for OS tablet adjusts, but the real true is they've needed to adjust OS for Intex devices so they can strike a deal with them. Using money for different thing that is originally intended, and for their own purpose is legally called embezzlement and fraud, so stop defending Jolla. They have created this havoc by themselves. IGG contributors were not to be blamed. Also for all of those bozos that are claiming that IGG contributors should not ask for money refund, think again (This would be probably true if they've haven't broke the agreement by conducted personal agendas. They've created tablet, they got award for tablet of the year, they've knew the cost. They are not startup company as they were claiming. Those are Nokia engineers, managers and staff. Not a freaking students). Before Jolla has created this campaign they had to read and accept the agreement of IGG Terms of use.

Under "Disputes between Campaign Owners and Contributors" there are two paragraphs:

Campaign Owners are legally bound to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors (including delivering any Perks).

and more important:

If a Campaign Owner is unable to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors, the Campaign Owner will work with the Contributors to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution, which may include the issuance of a refund of Contributions by the Campaign Owner.

Since they've stated publicly that they are not able to deliver tablet, we have right for ask for a full refund.

If you do not believe check the terms by yourself.

HTML Code:

https://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms

On the link

HTML Code:

http://www.tivi.fi/Kaikki_uutiset/jolla-horjuu-haudan-partaalla-sai-oikeudelta-rauhoitusaikaa-6236014

they also clearly asked the district court in Helsinki to be protected from legal action. Also stating that they obviously have the money, and they are looking for another creditors so they can "continue their business" or should I say their development of adjustment OS for Intex devices.

There is also a catch, this is only temporary decision, and it is only a district court. There is also a supreme court that can revoke that decision, so they are not fully protected as they've thought.

Last edited by prometheus; 2015-12-10 at 18:59.

switch-hitter	2015-12-10 , 19:02
Posts: 207 \| Thanked: 552 times \| Joined on Jul 2011	#2678

Originally Posted by Copernicus

There aren't very many GObjects in Mer so far as I can see

That's a real shame, why create a Linux distro with so much of the good stuff missing?

switch-hitter	2015-12-10 , 19:04
Posts: 207 \| Thanked: 552 times \| Joined on Jul 2011	#2679

Originally Posted by pichlo

Here is where I think many people make a mistake. By assuming that the investor drew back now. When all the signs for the past six months indicate that the investor drew back perhaps as far back as in May, and was definitely gone by August

Maybe they invested $100M in H5OS instead

	Copernicus	2015-12-10 , 19:09
	Posts: 1,986 \| Thanked: 7,698 times \| Joined on Dec 2010 @ Dayton, Ohio	#2680

Originally Posted by prometheus

Since they've stated publicly that they are not able to deliver tablet, we have right for ask for a full refund.

and

Originally Posted by prometheus

they also clearly asked the district court in Helsinki to be protected from legal action. Also stating that they obviously have the money, and they are looking for another creditors so they can "continue their business" or should I say their development of adjustment OS for Intex devices.

There is also a catch, this is only temporary decision, and it is only a district court. There is also a supreme court that can revoke that decision, so they are not fully protected as they've thought.

Wow, Prometheus. Given all the posts you've written on the Jolla blog, I never thought I would see you as a Jolla supporter.

But, here you are, implying that Jolla has money, and that they are going to survive this restructuring. I don't know what it is like in Europe, but on this side of the pond, a startup going into restructuring is pretty much a death-blow. Unless they can find an investor that has enough faith in their future profitability to both cover their existing debts and give them new cash to continue moving forward, there is no way Jolla can continue. And, given that their problem is that their existing investors have lost faith, the idea that someone new would sweep in and pick up the pieces seems far fetched.

So yeah, I think we're past the point of asking for refunds now, sad to say. There is no future for the tablets. There is no future for the Intex deal. There will be no future refunds.