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	Estel	2011-08-16 , 05:26
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Originally Posted by qole

Estel, I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I think Cordia is a dead-end. I think it is a great project, and it inspires me to think that we may see the ashes of Maemo live on in a modern, open, community-driven device.

I said in my original post, "Is a community centred around the Cordia tablet really a Maemo community?" and I meant that honestly, not discounting the community in any way.

I just don't think the community that forms around the Cordia tablet will be the Maemo community; I think it will still go through a phoenix-like transformation into the "Cordia community".

That's put it in different light, especially that - given last news from council meeting with Nokia - we won't be able to keep "Maemo" name. no big deal, really - if we conclude that Cordia (Foundation, for example) suit our needs, it's ok. If whatever other name pop-up, it's ok anyway.

The point is IMO (and as I understand, You also mean it) to gather around (as Open as it's possible), highly adaptable system. It seems that Meego Core, with some open UI (I like idea of it beign Cordia, but we can live with any other good choice, if, another time, something pop-up) is best solution now, and it doesn't seem that something betters is going to "happen" in at least few years ahead.

I think is sane conclusion, doesn't it? Stick to best thing we can have now - in meritocratic terms - instead of arguing about names, domains (damn ITT talk) etc. Of course I'm not addressing this personally to You, it's rather based on observation from what "future" threads suffer

Originally Posted by Texrat

Please don't get me wrong: I'm not opposed to a return to ITT at all. But that's up to Reggie. IMO the mechanics are simple: after Nokia elects not to fund *.maemo.org further, Reggie can uncouple the merger that a few disliked. Turn off the ITT redirect. No big deal at all. Who ever wants to stay can stay-- but again, it's Reggie's domain, so his engagement is the starting place.

To be honest, I don't like idea of one guy arbitrary deciding how Maemo/Cordia/whatever community communication board will look. As we see already, it's very ineffective and inconvenient approach (Council and moderators already confirmed that they can't help solving certain problems, cause Reggie got last and final word, and he wasn't willing to give authoritative answer).

*If* we're to become "legal" entity at some point in future, I think it's better to move into self-funded server. To be honest (again

) even *if*, when Nokia will stop paying bills, Reggie would like to pay everything out of his pocket, I would rather like to *not* accept that - at least, if things would remain looking as they're looking now.

No offense for Reggie, but we're electing council, voting for decisions etc. for a reason. I don't "understand" why one (very important) part of this - communication board - should be "watched" by one misty, eclectic person, which may or may not respect Council/Community decisions.

// Edit

Also, as it seems that we're not going to keep maemo name, domain ownership is even less big deal (not that this would be a big deal even *if* maemo name would be donated to us by Nokia, which is most unlikely)

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	debernardis	2011-08-16 , 05:32
	Posts: 2,142 \| Thanked: 2,054 times \| Joined on Dec 2006 @ Sicily	#52

Originally Posted by qole

[...] everyone else is going towards Android, which doesn't have any kind of "normal" GNU/Linux stack, especially an X server. And don't even get me started on the "locked black box" OSes like iOS and WP7.

Are we doomed to lose the GNU\Linux in our Pockets?

I don't understand. Android is built upon the Linux kernel (with some deviations, but this might re-converge in the future). Allows a very large hardware choice and gets all the new hw goodies. Has open source afaik, or at least the source of 2.3 should be published.

So why not building upon it and giving it all the Posix powers, X server and what it currently lacks for being embraced by those who like it FOSS?

For example, having a full Debian distro working in a chroot upon the android kernel is a breeze. VNC is a decent substitute of a real X server until someone does it. In the hands of Qole, this could turn into the real Debian phone/tablet, and others could develop or adapt a window manager optimized for capacitative screens and fingertip use.

Others are building upon Android: look at the Grid/Tabco - so the idea is viable, but the community interest is doing it as free, libre, open source as can be.

So, again, why not?

[you could tell me, go to xda-devs for discussing these ideas. Nope, they seem to like Android as is, while the ideas of having real Linux in our pocket belongs here!]

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	Texrat	2011-08-16 , 05:33
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Originally Posted by Estel

No offense for Reggie, but we're electing council, voting for decisions etc. for a reason. I don't "understand" why one (very important) part of this - communication board - should be "watched" by one misty, eclectic person, which may or may not respect Council/Community decisions.

Ultimately, the ITT domain is Reggie's. The council represents maemo.org.

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tekki	2011-08-16 , 05:37
Posts: 60 \| Thanked: 198 times \| Joined on Aug 2011 @ Radical Realistic Open Source with JFDI instead of Bikeshedding	#54

Originally Posted by Estel

The point is IMO (and as I understand, You also mean it) to gather around (as Open as it's possible), highly adaptable system. It seems that Meego Core, with some open UI (I like idea of it beign Cordia, but we can live with any other good choice, if, another time, something pop-up) is best solution now, and it doesn't seem that something betters is going to "happen" in at least few years ahead.

Out of morbid curiousity, is there some kind of misunderstanding that MeeGo Handset UX / what is patched on top of it in Community Edition is not a open UI?

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ericsson	2011-08-16 , 05:39
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I don't know. I'm more of a hardware kind of guy. Something else is bound to pop up, someone is bound to make the same mistakes as Nokia. The focus on open platforms instead of focusing on creating first rate software teams with first rate leadership has more or less killed Nokia. The notion that software just happens, given enough developers and openness is just plain wrong in a commercial context.

But, there is definitely a market for hardware for the open source community. It is a small niche, but more than large enough to sustain itself. It is a matter of focus here also, focus must be on creating that hardware, not ruling the world. That is what went wrong with Nokia. Don't be surprised if Samsung comes to help

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	Estel	2011-08-16 , 05:45
	Posts: 5,028 \| Thanked: 8,613 times \| Joined on Mar 2011	#56

Originally Posted by tekki

Out of morbid curiousity, is there some kind of misunderstanding that MeeGo Handset UX / what is patched on top of it in Community Edition is not a open UI?

No, no, I just mean that (obviously) Swipe UI (sorry, I don't like that corporate blabla about calling "User Interface" a "User Experience") is closed source, and UI inside Meego community Edition (which you mentioned) is far from being comfortable and friendly to prepare application UI's for it. Maybe some won't agree with me, but I treat is as "template" or "tech demo", that allow us to use Meego, unless we get "real" UI.

Originally Posted by Texrat

Ultimately, the ITT domain is Reggie's. The council represents maemo.org.

OK, but - maybe it's just me misunderstanding - someone mentioned, that reggie can decide to "switch" maemo.org forum to itt, if he wishes?

Still, even if that's not the case, I think current approach of reggie+ his non elected by community supermoderators (is there anyone else other than chemist a Supermoderator?), is far from being effective, not to mention convenient. I think that Community should (for example, via elected Council members) have full control of such a important part as Communication Board.

If I'm wrong somewhere, please correct me.

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	Texrat	2011-08-16 , 06:04
	Posts: 11,700 \| Thanked: 10,045 times \| Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA	#57

Originally Posted by Estel

OK, but - maybe it's just me misunderstanding - someone mentioned, that reggie can decide to "switch" maemo.org forum to itt, if he wishes?

I said that, but you may not know the whole story here.

Reggie owns the InternetTabletTalk.com domain. He has it redirected here. If/when Nokia pulls the plug on *.maemo.org, I can understand Reggie removing that redirect. He doesn't need ANYone's approval for that, nor should he.

But I that's the domain mechanics. Of course the forum itself is another issue. Who owns the content now? Most of it accrued under talk.maemo.org.

If/when Nokia pulls the plug, the council might already be moot. I'm inclined now to cast a vote in favor of allowing the body to dissolve with Nokia's final withdrawal... and starting over if ITT re-emerges. But again, the community content issue can get sticky...

EDIT: you might also have the chickens and eggs reversed. Reggie started the forum. The council operates in the forum with his agreement, not the other way around. The council was created to support the community at large, not the forum per se.

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Last edited by Texrat; 2011-08-16 at 06:07.

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	zehjotkah	2011-08-16 , 06:13
	Posts: 2,361 \| Thanked: 3,746 times \| Joined on Dec 2007 @ Berlin - Love this city!!	#58

Regarding MeeGo and new hardware.
After yesterdays announcement of Google buying Motorola, the discussions with HTC and Samsung to use MeeGo on both x86 and ARM based devices heated up a lot.

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	ysss	2011-08-16 , 06:14
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Originally Posted by zehjotkah

Regarding MeeGo and new hardware.
After yesterdays announcement of Google buying Motorola, the discussions with HTC and Samsung to use MeeGo on both x86 and ARM based devices heated up a lot.

Discussions between whom and at what level?

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tekki	2011-08-16 , 06:17
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Originally Posted by Estel

No, no, I just mean that (obviously) Swipe UI (sorry, I don't like that corporate blabla about calling "User Interface" a "User Experience") is closed source, and UI inside Meego community Edition (which you mentioned) is far from being comfortable and friendly to prepare application UI's for it. Maybe some won't agree with me, but I treat is as "template" or "tech demo", that allow us to use Meego, unless we get "real" UI.

Right, the Community Edition is made up from the same platform parts (mcompositor, meegotouch-home, control panel UI, etc) as the Swipe UI. I'll respectfully disagree that it's just a template as it's functionally working (but that's down to a different discussion) for basic use cases. All the stuff to 'productize' UI would have to be reimplemented (some is already)

Similarly, Cordia is built from the same platform parts Maemo5 desktop is (hildon-desktop, clutter, etc) and all parts you see around in Maemo5 (control panels, themes, status bar applets, etc etc) has to be reimplemented.

The reason I brought up those two is simple: both of them need to be 'productized'. Nokia took the platform parts and made Maemo5 UI, Swipe UI. Similarly the two UI's community has to do the same.

I think we're actually in a really good situation. We have a solid and sustainable MeeGo N900 hardware adaptation that can support many different UX'es. Examples:

MeeGo tablet UX: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjQukhXYt-U

Community Edition UX: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMfVKlC_uBw

XBMC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAH8GqYmeGs

Digia's custom UX: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWawBt8cXVU

Home automation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob7icZ4XsIQ

CyberCom UX: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Fk9rSsJMbE

(I can't seem to find a video of Cordia on N900 - anyone can point me to one)?

My personal preference is to build upon the hard work (EDIT: previous 'being', is actually 'has been') done in Community Edition to actually productize the MeeGo Handset UX in a open, community way to a point where basic functionality works properly. Those who has followed it has noticed it has improved greatly.

But that's maybe because I'm lazy and I don't want to reimplement everything in UI when someone else has already done it in open source. Feels a bit like KDE/GNOME all over again..

Last edited by tekki; 2011-08-16 at 06:28.

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