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-   -   TOHKBD Layouts (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=94303)

wazd 2014-12-12 21:08
TOHKBD Layouts
 
Hello people, long time no see :)
I've finally finished a template for TOHKBD layout file that will be used to laser etch letters on the keypad.

http://i.imgur.com/YWwxIUs.png

A little explanation. Each key will have blue "zone" underneath black paint and UV coating even though some zones will not have a symbol hence fully coated. But you will be able to engrave symbols of your liking within that zone and they will be blue and will receive backlight.

Now we need your help to make all the layouts you will ever need, from QWERTY to COLEMAK. Feel free to post examples of your personal layouts (don't forget to mention its origins) and I will make a vector file for each of you for smooth and faultless engraving.

And thanks for supporting us!
Andrew

dirkvl 2014-12-12 23:18
Re: TOHKBD Layouts
 
This thread is intended for:

- making designs to edit existing layouts
- make new layouts for stealth-edition keypads
- sharing layout files
- sharing experiences with engraving places
- gathering experiences for future projects, regarding layouts and engraving
- hosting tutorial for engraving


This thread is not intended for:

- you should have done/made ....
- change everybody's layout to my preferences!
- why is prototype not yet perfect?!
- howso people if now humens cuz ima gerl blable why not?!!

Armadillo 2015-01-09 13:41
Re: TOHKBD Layouts
 
Oh, I've totally missed this thread. I hope I understood the thread's goal correct, to also discuss the "default" layouts.

Here's my suggestion for the QWERTZ layout:
http://www.penguinfriends.org/galler...id=2059&part=e

I did some changes to the special chars.
- added µ
- moved ; and : to , and . where it is usually found on qwertz layouts
- added ß to s
- and many other things

The goal was to move some very important characters to the same place where it can be found on the real keyboards.

//UPDATE: I saw, that my Openoffice printed a weird version of accent aigu on "B". SO this should be the accent aigu, just to clarify this. ;)

Roland684 2015-01-09 16:07
Re: TOHKBD Layouts
 
I choose the qwerty layout, althought I dislike the symbols being moved off away from the number keys. And because on closer inspection I see no (technical) reason for this, I'm going to try to switch to a stealth board and have the following layout engraved:

http://klopt.nl/various/tohkbd_roland.png

It's very close to the US-international qwerty layout my brain is used to (I'm still having problems with my Droid 3 layout, although I use the device for everything, after using it for 4 yours, the layout is still uncomfortable.)

The [] and {} brackets have been places in line with () and <> and the ? was moved one key to the left as that key was still empty.

I'm not sure It's final (there still is an empty key at the bottom row), but it's pretty much going to be this layout.

Bundyo 2015-01-09 22:21
Re: TOHKBD Layouts
 
Can I have in vector the Bulgarian phonetic layout we discussed in Twitter some time ago? :)

malkavian 2015-01-19 19:59
Re: TOHKBD Layouts
 
Here is my proposal for an adaptation to english layout so, without moving any symbol from it, adds support for spanish. This modification also add to english layout support for portuguese (oficial language in Brasil, Portugal, Angola, Cabo Verde, Guinea-Bisáu, Guinea Ecuatorial, Mozambique, Santo Tomé y Príncipe, Brasil, Macao, Timor Oriental), catalan/valencian (from a region of Spain) and galician (from a region of Spain).

Obviously spanish (with all spanish regions) use a different place for symbols, and the same is for countries wich use portuguese, but it's a good compromise for having and all-in-one keyboard without touching the place of any english symbol. Could be useful for just buy the TOHKBD with english layout and engrave just the needed symbols that it lacks.

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=186

Egon 2015-01-19 20:41
Re: TOHKBD Layouts
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by malkavian (Post 1457306)
Here is my proposal for an adaptation to english layout so, without moving any symbol from it, adds support for spanish. This modification also add to english layout support for portuguese (oficial language in Brasil, Portugal, Angola, Cabo Verde, Guinea-Bisáu, Guinea Ecuatorial, Mozambique, Santo Tomé y Príncipe, Brasil, Macao, Timor Oriental), catalan/valencian (from a region of Spain) and galician (from a region of Spain).

Obviously spanish (with all spanish regions) use a different place for symbols, and the same is for countries wich use portuguese, but it's a good compromise for having and all-in-one keyboard without touching the place of any english symbol. Could be useful for just buy the TOHKBD with english layout and engrave just the needed symbols that it lacks.

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=186
Yes, with your keyboard you can write Spanish texts. And fhere is the Ç character which is frequently used by Portuguese, Catalan and French.

But for Catalan, you'd need the ` (accent grave) working as a "dead-key". Can it be written on your keyboard? (I guess that the accent on the G key is the accent grave). There is also the need to enter the Catalan Ŀ and ŀ characters (either with the · (middle dot) or with the Ŀ character).

For Portuguese texts, there should be some more dead-key accents, such as circumflex ^ and tilde ~. I cannot find them (the photo is not clear enough; can you add a clear diagram or picture with clear key labels?). But I guess that the accent on the T key is the circumflex. And is the tilde ~ on the Q key? On the Englsh keyboard the ^and ~ don't work as dead-key accents, but I assume that when the input language is set to Portuguese, for example, they would work correctly.

The use of the ª and º ordinal indicators is not limited to the Catalan language - they are found also on some other standard keyboards (Spanish, Italian ...). But no problem, your keyboard layout includes them.

So, it looks that all the characters and accents of the three "Iberian" languages can be added to the keyboard without making its use any more difficult for English texts. Perhaps the Ç character could be entered with a dedicated Ç key (but then the layout would become rather "Latin-American + Iberian" than an "English+3" layout).

malkavian 2015-01-19 23:09
Re: TOHKBD Layouts
 
As you said Egon, the middle point is absent. Your guessings are correct. The definition of being or not a dead key goes in the software configuration as you said. I added the middle point, moved the Ç key to one where can be typed as lower case or upcase (I placed it badly in the previous layout). Now I placed it on the right of the Ñ, so I moved the acute to the same place as other symbols, and then rearranged the º and ª symbols. Hope you like it.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7539/...8ffa18f3_o.jpg

Layout in libreoffice format

Egon 2015-01-20 16:58
Re: TOHKBD Layouts
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by malkavian (Post 1457326)
As you said Egon, the middle point is absent. Your guessings are correct. The definition of being or not a dead key goes in the software configuration as you said. I added the middle point, moved the Ç key to one where can be typed as lower case or upcase (I placed it badly in the previous layout). Now I placed it on the right of the Ñ, so I moved the acute to the same place as other symbols, and then rearranged the º and ª symbols. Hope you like it.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7539/...8ffa18f3_o.jpg

Layout in libreoffice format
Yes, I like it. Some questions, however:
(1) Where is now ´ (accent agute)?
(2) It looks that even on the original English Qwerty the ' (apopstrophe) is on the S key. Too impractical? I suppose that the apostrophe should be on the right-hand side of the L or P or Ñ key (both on the English and "English+3" keyboards). but I understand that it may be a bit difficult to change now the English QWERTY. Perhaps we're talking about the next generation or revision.
(3) I believe that he Ñ and Ç characters can be on the same key. Like on some Scandinavian full-size keyboards there are double labels on the right-hand side of the L key: ØÖ on one key and ÆÄ on the next (the activated language, e.g. Norwegian or Swedish) determines which of the two labels is valid. In the same way, there can be the ÇÑ label on the key which is located on the right.hand side of the L key. If you activate Spanish as the writing langaes, that key produces Ñ, with other languages (Portuguese, Catalan and French) the same key produces Ç. With the Spanish activated, the Ç could be typed with a modifier key (such as the "upper left corner" key, and the Ñ key, and with the Catalan activated, the Ñ could be typed wit the "upper left corner" modifier key and the Ç key. This is complicated to explain, but very easy to learn in practice, and the benefit would be: the Ñ and Ç would be found in their standard place for all 4 langagues, and there would be a free key (for apostrophe, for example) on the right-hand side of the ÇÑ key. But again, perhaps we're talking about the next generation or revision.

malkavian 2015-01-20 17:45
Re: TOHKBD Layouts
 
My concern now is the have a modification for the english qwerty layout so I (and whoever wants) can easily buy the TOHKDB with english qwerty and go to a shop for engraving the other symbols to have spanish (and maybe others) available. I am assuming that this is doable and that I don't need to buy a stealth one and engrave all the keys. If I'd have to engrave all, it would be better to arrange a layout more similar to spanish ones.

@wazd, @dirkvl ?


As said the acute for áéíoú is in the same key as the F, above it. Your proposal of a ÑÇ key would be great to use the free key to put the acute, wich is his natural place in spanish qwerty keyboards. By the way the Ç in spanish keys is on the tight on the acute, so your proposal put it near his usual place for spanish, but not in it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QWERTY#Spanish

dirkvl 2015-01-20 18:23
Re: TOHKBD Layouts
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by malkavian (Post 1457400)
@dirkvl ?
you guys seem to be posting the same long patches of text with the same suggestions over and over.

anyway, since we do not have samples, we have not been able to try to engrave extra symbols. but, mentioned everywhere, the possibility to be able to do this is intended.

this thread is for your spanish layout discussions, if you do not post pictures but only type long patches of text -which are to me very confusing- we will probably scroll past it.

this thread is for sharing engraving designs and files, as well as sharing experiences with engraving.

both your and egon's posts in this thread should all be in the other one, since they are discussions about layouts and not final designs nor contain info about engraving.

malkavian 2015-01-20 19:18
Re: TOHKBD Layouts
 
Ok, sorry dirkvl and all. Will continue there and will decide if my image posted is the definitive design we'd like for spanish and portuguese for TOHKBD v2, or other similar.

malkavian 2015-03-10 18:58
Re: TOHKBD Layouts
 
Data here is not valid. Real qwerty layout have french acute on "F" letter and spanish acute on "G" letter. My design is not valid then.I will post corrected design.

Hello Wazd and all!

Here is the final design for converting a english layout in one valid for spanish + italian + portuguese + catalonian + maybe french.

It takes english layout as a base, so vector file only need the symbols with green background.


https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8633/...ee676ee0_n.jpg


Layout in libreoffice calc format

Roland684 2015-06-05 11:02
What is possible/impossible?
 
To decide which keys I'll add to my layout, I was wondering what is possible and what can never be possible.

I'm a software engineer, so I can probably add some things myself, but I'm not familiar yet with writing phone apps (I got as far as creating a hello world Andoid app) and I'm not familiar with sailfish at all.

Because I work a lot with TV's, I think I'll be adding the common buttons of TV remotes to my layout. Just in case I ever write a remote control app. Many of these keys (red/green/yellow/blue/ch+/ch-, etc) make no sense on a phone, but is it possible to write an app which reads these keys, and send them to the TV? (don't worry about the sending to the TV part)

Other keys found on TV remotes and many PC keyboard are the media control keys play/stop/ffwd/next, etc. These could make sense on a phone as well, to control media players.
Could this work?

How about volume up/down keys? The phone's own keys can be obstructed by the keyboard, depending on the orientation in which you attach it. Could I add these two keys to my layout and have them work identical to the phones own keys?

Can I add a (working) mute button? Maybe even different buttons for different profiles/situations? One for complete silence, one for vibrate, one for civilized noise levels and one for absolute mayhem.
Or one button which pops up a dialog with the different profiles?

And could I write my own app which captures the vol+/-/mute keys first and blocks their normal behavior? (So when in my remote control app, use these keys to control the volume of the TV set, not the Jolla's volume)

Can I add keys that do something on the phone no matter in which state/app it is? Like:
- Can I add an voicemail / 'ICE' button which directly calls my voicemail / ICE-contact?
(common on many cell/wireless phones where you can hold the '1' to directly call voicemail.)
- Can I add a key to open certain apps (email client, web browser)?
- Can I add a lock button, which locks the phone? Like the button already on the phone. Although the existing button might be very special button, just like the power button on my PC is not a regular button.
- Can I add a power button to power down the phone? To power up the phone?

Can I define an action to execute when holding a button for a longer time (like calling voicemail by holding the '1'), or does the keyboard only register keypresses, no matter how long they are pressed?

Can I create a button for force a certain rotation of the display? I know you can temporarily prevent an orientation change by touching the screen while rotating the phone, but I have many situations where I'm not holding the screen but something triggers an orientation change (like making a sharp turn in my car, which causes my navigation app to rotate). So a key to set the orientation to landscape/potrait/auto would be very nice.
could pressing that key provide some visual feedback (like the android toast message)?

Can I create macro record/play buttons? I have one unused key in my layout, whick I would like as <macro> key: <shift>-<macro> to start recording keypresses a until I press <shift>-<macro> again. Pressing <macro> would replay those keypresses. (for example fot those annoying email-password dialogs that I have to fill in 10 times a day)

I expect this to require some programming from my side, but I would like to know if it can be done, or will be impossible. (any indication on whether this will be easy or very hard is appreciated)

dirkvl 2015-06-05 11:43
Re: What is possible/impossible?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland684 (Post 1472765)
To decide which keys I'll add to my layout, I was wondering what is possible and what can never be possible.

I'm a software engineer, so I can probably add some things myself, but I'm not familiar yet with writing phone apps (I got as far as creating a hello world Andoid app) and I'm not familiar with sailfish at all.

Because I work a lot with TV's, I think I'll be adding the common buttons of TV remotes to my layout. Just in case I ever write a remote control app. Many of these keys (red/green/yellow/blue/ch+/ch-, etc) make no sense on a phone, but is it possible to write an app which reads these keys, and send them to the TV? (don't worry about the sending to the TV part)

Other keys found on TV remotes and many PC keyboard are the media control keys play/stop/ffwd/next, etc. These could make sense on a phone as well, to control media players.
Could this work?

How about volume up/down keys? The phone's own keys can be obstructed by the keyboard, depending on the orientation in which you attach it. Could I add these two keys to my layout and have them work identical to the phones own keys?

Can I add a (working) mute button? Maybe even different buttons for different profiles/situations? One for complete silence, one for vibrate, one for civilized noise levels and one for absolute mayhem.
Or one button which pops up a dialog with the different profiles?

And could I write my own app which captures the vol+/-/mute keys first and blocks their normal behavior? (So when in my remote control app, use these keys to control the volume of the TV set, not the Jolla's volume)

Can I add keys that do something on the phone no matter in which state/app it is? Like:
- Can I add an voicemail / 'ICE' button which directly calls my voicemail / ICE-contact?
(common on many cell/wireless phones where you can hold the '1' to directly call voicemail.)
- Can I add a key to open certain apps (email client, web browser)?
- Can I add a lock button, which locks the phone? Like the button already on the phone. Although the existing button might be very special button, just like the power button on my PC is not a regular button.
- Can I add a power button to power down the phone? To power up the phone?

Can I define an action to execute when holding a button for a longer time (like calling voicemail by holding the '1'), or does the keyboard only register keypresses, no matter how long they are pressed?

Can I create a button for force a certain rotation of the display? I know you can temporarily prevent an orientation change by touching the screen while rotating the phone, but I have many situations where I'm not holding the screen but something triggers an orientation change (like making a sharp turn in my car, which causes my navigation app to rotate). So a key to set the orientation to landscape/potrait/auto would be very nice.
could pressing that key provide some visual feedback (like the android toast message)?

Can I create macro record/play buttons? I have one unused key in my layout, whick I would like as <macro> key: <shift>-<macro> to start recording keypresses a until I press <shift>-<macro> again. Pressing <macro> would replay those keypresses. (for example fot those annoying email-password dialogs that I have to fill in 10 times a day)

I expect this to require some programming from my side, but I would like to know if it can be done, or will be impossible. (any indication on whether this will be easy or very hard is appreciated)
this is one biga-ss block of text

Roland684 2015-06-05 12:10
Re: TOHKBD Layouts
 
Yes it is. and now it is here twice :)
Many questions. Probably all can only be answered by kimmoli.

I'll go to irc and try to get them answered one by one (and I'll post the answers here too)

Roland684 2015-06-05 15:25
Re: What is possible/impossible?
 
Well, the irc chat was very prommissing.

by default, there are 12 key-combos the user can configure as hotkeys to launch any application that has .desktop file, and you can invoke call over dbus/scripting, so just make .desktop file containing/starting that script.

This would enable voicemail, ICE, browser, email, etc buttons without programming.

With programming you can make some OS/wayland/some layer grab the keys, and all things related to keyboard are possible.

So macro record/playback should be possible.
Long-presses should be possible.

It should be possible to have a popup, so pressing the ICE button could popup a dialog where you can select the desired contact to call.

Locking the screen rotation is certainly possible (the screen is locked in landscape while the keyboard is open) although not all apps have a landscape layout.

Nice nice nice. I'll be adding many keys to my layout :)

mced 2015-07-11 15:15
Re: TOHKBD Layouts
 
About custom layouts, I'm wondering how does Maliit handle upper case modifier (CAPS+key) when we're dealing with "no-letters" (numbers, signs...)

You know, when it's about standard latin letters, Maliit knows the rule "capitals' codes are lower's codes - 32"; and there's some magic code that links, e.g., "å" with "Å" (I guess it will be the same with "Ç" and "Ñ"... or we're f***ed).

But if we change KeyboardLayout.qml to, let's say, Malkavian's SP/CAT/POR/FR suggestion, code for the second row would end in something like:

Code:
row2.append({name:"P",  sym:"_",  size: 1})
row2.append({name:"'",  sym:"+",  size: 1})
row2.append({name:"Right Ctrl", sym:"", size: 2})
Will be any chance to take advantage of these three options on every key (key, CAPS+key, SYM+key) and add a second sign?


P.S: Taking a look at desktop Linux layout config files, they seem to be more flexible and powerful. /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/es example:

Code:
key <AC10>  { [    ntilde, Ntilde,  asciitilde, dead_doubleacute ] };
key <AC11>  { [dead_acute, dead_diaeresis, braceleft,  braceleft ] };

key <BKSL>  { [  ccedilla,  Ccedilla,  braceright,  dead_breve ] };

Roland684 2015-07-24 15:00
How to get an engraving file.
 
Ok, I've got my layout figured out, which keys I want where.

http://klopt.nl/various/tohkbd_roland2.png

Now what?

My low-res mockup will need to be converted into something some engraving shop can process.

I hope I haven't added too much detail, I have no idea what can and can not be done. what kind of DPI can be achieved?

There is to much detail for my bitmap :)
- on the 6 there is a wire-frame globe with the letters WWW on it
- on the 7 there is a calculator icon (-, +, =)
- on the 0 there is a compass needle with an N on it
- on the W there is a rotate screen icon (a rectangle with a curved arrow in it)
- On the S is a screenshot icon, a dashed square with a + in the bottom right corner

I think all other buttons are clear enough.

wazd, Are you going to make this in a proper layout for me?

olighak 2015-08-29 16:27
Re: TOHKBD Layouts
 
Is this template available?

Or should I do like some of the others and make things up in Excel?

I've got a stealth keyboard which I'd like custom laser etched. Has anyone done that, could anyone give a guide? Should I send it back to someone?

Best wishes,
Oli

coderus 2015-08-29 16:39
Re: TOHKBD Layouts
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by olighak (Post 1480404)
Is this template available?

Or should I do like some of the others and make things up in Excel?

I've got a stealth keyboard which I'd like custom laser etched. Has anyone done that, could anyone give a guide? Should I send it back to someone?

Best wishes,
Oli
Look at https://github.com/dirkvl/TOHKBD

olighak 2015-09-07 05:47
Re: TOHKBD Layouts
 
I did, and looked at every single file and directory. There is nothing.

Here is all it says:
"Keypad

Credits to Andrew
Layouts

designs, files etc"

I'm cool with shipping the stealth keyboard part to someone if someone wants to take it to a shop that can laser etc. it, or has done it to theirs already. And I can describe or make a file with what I am intending, but obviously I'd like to reinvent the wheel as little as possible.

olighak 2015-09-07 07:30
Re: TOHKBD Layouts
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wazd (Post 1451899)
Hello people, long time no see :)
I've finally finished a template for TOHKBD layout file that will be used to laser etch letters on the keypad.

http://i.imgur.com/YWwxIUs.png

A little explanation. Each key will have blue "zone" underneath black paint and UV coating even though some zones will not have a symbol hence fully coated. But you will be able to engrave symbols of your liking within that zone and they will be blue and will receive backlight.

Now we need your help to make all the layouts you will ever need, from QWERTY to COLEMAK. Feel free to post examples of your personal layouts (don't forget to mention its origins) and I will make a vector file for each of you for smooth and faultless engraving.

And thanks for supporting us!
Andrew
Andrew does the F1-F12 layout work for the keybord layout file? I am assuming yes. If not I'll go back and move some keys.

Best wishes and thanks,
Oli

Roland684 2015-09-23 14:02
Re: TOHKBD Layouts
 
Oli, wazd is going to make your layout into a vector file for you, "that's part of the deal". I don't know if you're already in contact with him? He's been away for some time, but he's back :)

I went to a local (Eindhoven) engraving/3d-printing/custom t-shirt shop and they said they need a file (most vector files will do, but even a high res jpeg could work). They prefer a file where the corners are physical reference points so they can align their engraving machine from where to where it should engrave the file onto the keyboard. So no file with whitespace aound the layout, the left top of the file should align with the left top of the left top key.

I expect wazd to make me a vector file and I'll just walk to the shop with my keyboard and the file.

With some luck I'll be able to have my keyboard engraved this week. I'll post pictures.


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