Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

meego_leenooks1
"Have you ever tried using an Android phone? It's something like this:
- you turn off automatic OS updates,
- and automatic refresh of Google Play store repository,
- and automatic updates of Google Maps,
- and automatic everything in any way related to internet connectivity,
but at the very same moment as you connect to Wi-Fi or GPRS you check the running applications list and you see:
- System update running,
- Google Play store running,
- Google Maps running,
- and also Settings and Gallery running (WTF these ones want in the internet?!)"

Mee-lee..........
hit the nail on the head there.
I OVERWHELMINGLY completely agree with you.
I loathe android for this reason alone...
forget all other valid reasons..
this one pisses me off to no end...

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

Well, At least you can't complain that android in not capable of multitasking when it wants too! Many folks that flash custom roms use those that have all google apps removed. This is done for many reasons, some of which you indicated.

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

yup custom roms are great.
sadly there are very few apps in the "bull**** free zone" of the app world.

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

I may or may not have mentioned this somewhere around here...
A long time ago, I read an interesting Sci-Fi book. It was a collection of short stories, but I do not remember the name or the author, sorry.

One idea from one of those stories was that hardware and software complement each other. A good example is e.g. a floating point arithmetics. Older CPUs did not have the hardware to do FP arithmetics and it had to be emulated in software. So you can have either a single FPU instruction and a rather complex hardware to execute it or a simple hardware and a few hundred CPU instructions to achieve the same result, if in a longer time.

Abstracting this idea and taking it to an extreme, you will end up with two limits: 1) and infinitely complex hardware running no software at all, performing the task in zero time and 2) an infinitely complex software running on its own without any hardware, performing the task in an infinitely long time.

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

Another related problem is how it wants to call back to the google mothership before it even allows you to use wifi. There are situations where I just want the device to have local network access via a wifi access point that is not connected to the internet. But ****ing google mandates that the device conducts a "connectivity" test to ensure it can access the internet before it allows you to use the wifi connection (not strictly true - you can use it for a few seconds whilst it conducts the "connectivity" test and when it fails then it cuts off access).

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

That sounds a lot like what I have been seeing,
do you have any kind of reference that describes
what is going on there ?

I can imagine all sorts of things get logged for such pings,
but surely someone breaks it all down and shows
what Android is doing during such activity ?

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

Why not using old blackberry z10 or maybe z30, or even nokia n9, port fully working stable Sailfish and ressurect them from dying

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

Those blackberry thingies I know nothing about, I assume they have some proprietary OS on them, right? If so, there is no hope ever of porting anything on them.

As for N9, that has bern done.

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

I have not seen that port but from what I have read on these pages, it is not what one would exactly call "fully working" and "stable" :D

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

Good idea, blackberry's hardware for maemo/sailfish would be a perfect match. ..but there is no root exploits or bootloader available for this hardware, and probably won't be.

Giving 100$ for running one of those on PPSE ;)

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

Actually using a community port SFOS will make development easier - the device just needs to ship with non-GMS certified Android and done.

But is the community SFOS really what we want? IMHO it's quite far from a true Linux OS, and has too many components controlled by Jolla.

On the other hand, GPD Win doesn't have any Cellular functionality, which will make a huge difference, regarding Hardware (Soc, modem, RF, Antenna) and software (certification, tuning, adaptation) so it's not really comparable. For that price if you want cellular network, the specs will be much lower.


Graphic system comes with the SoC.

Tizen is not what we want I believe.

Nemo is a good option if that is in "product" standard.

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

There is a clear difference between a professional design/prototype/testing/mounding/SMT/manufacturing/quality control team, and a one man product. (I have really no offence to Dirk, in fact given the man power he has done an amazing job)

It will be a commercial product from product lines, which means it will match certain requirement before if leaves the factory. It's won't be 3D printed and will have all the userability and functions tested. If we build a device, this needs to be professional.

If we can manage to find 3000 Pichlo on this planet and we will have a really nice device that can last for a long time!

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

Android without Google services feels like a sane option for further software adaptation if it's going to be libhybris-based. Nemo Mobile can be used to replace Sailfish OS proprietary components, but it's far from product quality.

And yes, I understand the difference. GPD Win is relatively high tier due to x7-Z8750 chipset, so there can be some space here.

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

So if that would ever come true you should have one more (not exactly a 'pichlo' but a customer ;)).

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

If you ever did have a consumer base of 3000 pichlo, you would probably spend your whole budget on customer relations and not achieve very much :p

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

So you need to find $1.5million (USD) to get this off the ground?

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

Not true. Pichlo was not the one who demanded changes before the project even started :p

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

Android without GMS is definitely an option, to me it has following advs:

- Lower the overall cost as there will be almost no front work
- Easier warranty management and law requirement as all the basic function works by default (with Android)
- Lower maintanance cost

If there is not enough upfront funding this will be a good option.

However, the initial idea is to have a "powered by Maemo" device, as a successor to N900/Neo900 and this is against original intention...

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

The main issue i see with a "powered by Maemo" device is that Fremantle doesn't seem to be in a particularly good state to port it to anything vaguely recent.

Then of course there is the number of people willing to kickstart an effort, is there 3000+ people willing a pre-order a device with Maemo?

Doing an Android device is certainly a compromise, but then you can get people on board who actually want a keyboard Android device, which you might be able to find reasonable numbers of.

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

In short, it may not be 1.5M but similar amount will be needed.

Excluding all the R&D cost, certification etc..... To buy the components, manufacturing and have extra parts/device stock for warranty purpose will cost the most of the above funds.

R&D and moulding won't be cheap. Certification won't be cheap.

I don't know what is your definition of getting off the ground. If that means concept design or deliver some high quality legal commercial product to the hand.

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

How can anyone port anything to a Blackberry Device while they have a locked bootloader? :D

And even with their Android device it's impossible to install custom roms, how can you install something on a BB10 device?

And why need a SFOS port on N9, while a better and power device with the same form factor (Nexus 5) already has a stable port, or some older device which has a better function (Photon Q)?

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

I (and my 50 euro allwinner A33 tablet running hildon-desktop on armhfp devuan jessie) tend to disagree.

What Fremantle lacks is not hardware, but anyone but me and android808 (and Pali in regard to upstream kernel) willing to put effort in forward-porting it. Every now and then there are "brainstorm" threads, lots of talk and whatnot, producing nothing but noise.

Imagine that we have that open bootloader, octocore, 4GB, LTE and whatnot imaginary device - so what? Without us spending time on porting packages, Fremantle will not magically rebase itself - it needs somebody putting effort on it. The less devs do that effort, the longer time it will take. With nobody doing it, it will never happen.

just my 2 cents

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

Will you be able to do the porting task for a modern platform, if we pay you for the efforts?

It not we don't want to have Fremantle or just brainstoming. To be honest I really don't know how to port and how much work/how likely it will be successful. We need your help.

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

Just chipping in to echo a +1 for doing an Android device to pick up sales from people who want an Android device with a keyboard.

On top of that it may be then viable to have other OSs ported.

Personally, I've absolutely no desire for a hardware keyboard or resistive screen or Freemantle but if this leads to more effort to create an open linux mobile OS then I'll buy one.

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

Oh, seems you got me wrong - it is not about the money but the manpower - making a distribution is not a 1-2 guys job, esp if done in spare time. I don't need money(so far I have a well-paid full-time job), but developers interested in porting Fremantle on top of modern debian.

But I guess this is well OT here.

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

Here I tend to disagree.

It is well needed. Be it Freemantle/Devuan/SFOS (see the order? :p).
All distros would need big effort SW wise to run on other HW.
And I absolutely appreciate everyone's effort in doing so!

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

Chen has a point. All our projects suffer from the "man in his bedroom on his spare time" syndrome. Neo900 is the prime example. You would think that €50k is a full time salary for one person for a year, so once that was reached, you would expect that person to drop everything and focus 100% on that and nothing else. It would be very strange if the product was not finished in that time. But no, it continued in the same, "spare time job" way.

What we need is a change of paradigm. Developing a product is NOT a spare time job. As long as it stays one, all we will ever get is spare time results. We need someone, preferably a whole team, working full time.

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

I have been waiting for you or android to chime in...

If hildon is functional...
If fremantle is functional...
And on a tablet..
And from what I glean...close...
Then for the sake of Job!
Turn it into an 86 64 proper distro ...at least our platform...our os can be more easily maintained, preserved, expanded upon..
And put on virtually any PC ...
If no one or no one entity can provide us with a suitable device to migrate to..
Then turn it into a distro we can easily use on any PC or run off SD card on any old piece of smartphone crap....
UNTIL an entity comes along that wants to make devices for it again....
Or some better alt hardware solution comes along.
At least our os will be preserved ...more easily maintained...
AND
As a proper distribution...I bet we will pick up a LOT more members ...

Really...the only thing stopping new members from using our platform is that they MUST have a specific aging and outdated smartphone..which is increasingly becoming hard to find in decent shape.

Take that hurdle away...
make fremantle an all-purpose distro that will run on a pc, laptop, convertible, tablet ...even ...run off an sd card on a piece of crap android phone...
thus we gain a potential planet full of people swelling our ranks...
consequently we gain more help in maintaining, developing, testing, etc.

I can't see a loss with this approach...
Only gain..

And if we don't find SOMETHING to move maemo onto....
If we keep either
A- reminiscing ..
B- sitting put like we have and trying to maintain the status quo hoping a device comes along in time...(I think we won't last to see that day).
C-arguing ...about what font...or place setting should go where ...on what device ..that hasn't come around yet...
Or
D- do absolutely nothing...

Then it is the freakin' lifeboat scene straight out of the titanic ...all over again...
And not the modern version...the gritty old version...
Only for us ...there won't be any freakin' lifeboats to argue over!! !!
It will just be arguing as we sink.
And I for one won't stick around to watch that bit of gruesomeness ...

I don't give the lot of us 5-10 years...and maemo won't run on anything...due to units dying from old age...
(Well...my n8x0's will keep rockin' ...but the rest of you 'n900 only ' guys are doomed....)

So ...turn it into a distribution...
Ill use it...hell it'll be my daily....
Ill tinker with it...
Sure I won't be the only one either ...I bet...

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

Of course these things don't magically appear out of thin air, someone has to do the work.

Help us promote the work you're doing and maybe more people would be interested in helping out? Is there a video of your tablet running hildon we can share around?

What device is it? where can you buy one? what works hardware wise?

Sometimes in order to build a project up you have to yell from the roof tops "Hey everyone look at this cool thing I gone and done", and that is something that everyone posting in this thread can help with.

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...9&postcount=68

there are more recent videos in the same folder (http://46.249.74.23/allwinner/)

And what do you think I am doing :p

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

Back when I was researching this, this was the best that I came up with:
https://forum.xda-developers.com/sho...2&postcount=38

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

[OT]
Sounds well known.
Possibly the way Nokia would have become also?
[even that behaviour on MeeGo/Symbian was 'just for user convenience': check internet accessibility, open a login/gateway/proxy landing page; else set connection from automatic use to manual]
[/OT]

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

I really appreciate such statement. What I am trying to achieve is a commercial product which should have off the shelf quality and can be distributed worldwide.

After some careful consideration and evaluation I decided to execute this idea in another slightly different method:

Instead of building a complete slider phone, I will do a Slider Keyboard Mod for the Moto Z series.

The advantages are:

- Saving costs for building hardware. And eventually saving cost for the user.

Moto Z Play itself is a great device: Good performance, adequate hardware, nice build and camera and incredible battery life. The BL can be unlocked and is affordable. So the community can develop based on the hardware. And eventually Nemo or SFOS can also be ported.

- Shorter R&D time (Much shorter)

- Less risk. Overall much easier process.

- The successor to TOHKBD, with the support of a professional design/manufacturing team and an overall reliable platform (Moto Mods)

I have already been chosen as a finalist in Motorola’s “Transform the Smartphone” Challenge and have received their development kit and a free Moto Z.

The R&D design will be started shortly after the Chinese New Year holiday and I will post progress irregularly in here. The plan is to have a five-row keyboard slider mod with some extra battery. More info will be shared later. (I'm avoiding using "soon"...)

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

I need some quick feedback from Maemians:

Trying to decide the keyboard layout based on TOHKBD (really love the design) But I won't keep it same as for obvious reasons.

What is the facts that we like or we dislike on the layout of TOHKBD? (Layout only)

Which specific point that we need to take into consideration?

The suggestions here will be affecting the final product.

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

I take it you mean layout in general, not just the key positions itself (which were quite good, not much else to say about that).

Here's some things I liked:
- multiple keyboard layouts despite of small production run
- LED backlight
- could be used left or right
- it looked a bit like the n900 keyboard, the best mobile keyboard I've owned. ;)
- While not great in every aspect, magnets were a good way of working around a lot of problems.

About the only thing I didn't like about it was the amount of pressure required to press the keys.

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

I am just asking the key position... In general.

Regarding your points:
- Multiple keyboard will be available if the initial English keyboard is successful. I will need to save cost at early stage unfortunately.
- LED Backlight will be there
- I plan to put at lease navigation arrows on the left, so can be used as a game pad
- the advantage for this device is we have 5.5 inch in physical, get a bit more space to play with. N900 keyboard was good at its time, but only 3 rows and a bit compressed.

For your last point, it's the depth of the keypad. I have stated many time that this will be a commercial good quality product, the ease of type and comfortness is taked in to consideration.

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

Maybe use "next" then ;)

But a little heretic question, how likely from your estimate is it to not have android as the only option for a long time after delivery? I do not see Moto Z listed on the libhybris adaption list for now.
Nevertheless count me in, best of luck for your effort!

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

i wonder with a 5.5" device that a split keyboard might be the way to go, even with TOHKBD i felt that the keyboard was a little too big to get to the middle keys whilst holding it.

That said ive never used a TOHKBD for more than a few seconds.

A porter needs to buy a Moto Z and start porting, all the prerequisites are handled at this stage i think

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

Time to show some real work. To prove I'm not just talking here. :D

Sorry for so much watermark!! I don't want some bloggers steal my work here at least. It's still at very early stage. Let's keep it Maemian!

This is something that will look like in the future.

Keyboard layout is based on TOHKBD and will be changed!

I'm working on the keyboard layout now. And hence suggestions needed. :)

Re: [Brainstorm][Maybe the real one?] Maemo Community Device
 

That looks great! I also agree with r0kk3rz that a split keyboard might be worth looking into.